pinion seal replacement trouble

[Isaacmacleod]

When you change crush sleeve, and the pinion bearings and races you absolutely are changing 50% of the rear ended setup. Chances of returning the pinion to the exact distance it was from ring gear would be a long shot. Old bearings need pressed off or cut off, and save the shims under it as the starting point for new stuff. I bought a cheap set of new pinion bearings and grind with a carbide bit the inside races down smoothly where they will just slide on and off by hand. Then put pinion in without crush sleeve and tighten the nut with a beam style inch pound torque wrench to 15 pounds of rotational resistance-can only be a beam style torque wrench. The ring gear and carrier go back in and start checking gear pattern to determine amount of shims under pinion bearing. Last one I did probably had the pinion and carrier in and out 5 times getting pinion shimmed and depth into ring gear correct. Once that’s set take your “test fit bearings” off pinion leaving the shims and put the new bearing on and place in the press getting it into position.

IMO it’s best if you have someone with experience to guide you through the job. They do make pinion depth setup tools that are $200-$300 bucks then you can reference the numbers stamped into pinion to set proper depth that way. It’s the next tool on my list for sure. Check out Quick Performance they have the best deals on differential kit parts and tech tips, very nice people in Ames, Iowa.

thanks for the response


would i also need to change the shims on left and right of the carrier or just the pinion depth shim(s

 

[Isaacmacleod]

When you change crush sleeve, and the pinion bearings and races you absolutely are changing 50% of the rear ended setup. Chances of returning the pinion to the exact distance it was from ring gear would be a long shot. Old bearings need pressed off or cut off, and save the shims under it as the starting point for new stuff. I bought a cheap set of new pinion bearings and grind with a carbide bit the inside races down smoothly where they will just slide on and off by hand. Then put pinion in without crush sleeve and tighten the nut with a beam style inch pound torque wrench to 15 pounds of rotational resistance-can only be a beam style torque wrench. The ring gear and carrier go back in and start checking gear pattern to determine amount of shims under pinion bearing. Last one I did probably had the pinion and carrier in and out 5 times getting pinion shimmed and depth into ring gear correct. Once that’s set take your “test fit bearings” off pinion leaving the shims and put the new bearing on and place in the press getting it into position.

IMO it’s best if you have someone with experience to guide you through the job. They do make pinion depth setup tools that are $200-$300 bucks then you can reference the numbers stamped into pinion to set proper depth that way. It’s the next tool on my list for sure. Check out Quick Performance they have the best deals on differential kit parts and tech tips, very nice people in Ames, Iowa.

Also, why wouldn’t the pinion be at the same depth if I am buying the same brand of bearing and raceway, and using the exact same shim that came off of it??

 

[Schurkey]

It seems to me that If i reuse the shims on the left and right of the differential,

And i reuse the pinion shim which sets its depth,

I will have the same gear pattern as before, since i am not changing anything regarding gears or shims, just changing the pinion crush sleeve.

If you are ONLY changing the crush sleeve, this is correct aside from microscopic bearing wear. Close enough.

Is it as simple as
A)taking out my “C” clips,
pulling the axle shafts,

B)Rolling out the differential gears and carrier while keeping shims intact.

C) knocking out the pinion, replacing the bearings and races, but keeping the same shim,

then replacing the crush sleeve.

Reinstalling the pinion onto the yoke, with oil on both bearings to get an accurate torque,

Then tightening the pinion nut to 14-19 inch pounds carefully while seating the races and bearings by tapping/ turning the yoke.

Ideally, you'd verify pinion depth.

Realistically, this ought to be close enough to be OK. (Mind you, I've never done this. I'm allergic to screwing with the pinion.)

would i also need to change the shims on left and right of the carrier or just the pinion depth shim(s

Again, you should verify bearing preload...but...this ought to be good enough since you're not changing carrier bearings. It's working now without complaint, it should be just fine when it's put together exactly the way it is.

Also, why wouldn’t the pinion be at the same depth if I am buying the same brand of bearing and raceway, and using the exact same shim that came off of it??

The bearings could have item-to-item variations. In addition, just because they're the same brand, doesn't mean they were made in the same factory, or even in the same country, and therefore not by the same machinery and tooling.

That said, I bet the variation is very small, so I'd expect you'd get by with it.

A Pro with proper pinion-depth tooling and a ready stack of various-thickness shims would check and verify, correcting if needed. He'd also charge accordingly. You or me...we'd probably slap it together and hope for the best with a reasonable expectation of success. No guarantees, though.

 

[alignman88]

Also, why wouldn’t the pinion be at the same depth if I am buying the same brand of bearing and raceway, and using the exact same shim that came off of it??

You may get lucky and it all fits perfect. But you said you were replacing the bearings/races in the case so driving out old races then driving in new ones that may have tiny differences is known as stacking tolerances. The shims go down super fine hundred-thousands of inch thickness because it’s that important.

What do I know tho the last one I did was all new carrier, gears, pinion, axles all bearings replaced but one before that went together like you hope yours will, so my point of reference is probably off yours might be effortless.

 

[alignman88]

thanks for the response


would i also need to change the shims on left and right of the carrier or just the pinion depth shim(s

And remember when you said you touched it and one spot was incredibly hot? It’s hot because it isn’t happy. If pinion nut was backed off the gears weren’t meshed properly and loaded that big bearing that I bet was at the hottest spot. Man I’m old AF and have torn up and fixed more stuff than is normal like many others here. We tell you this because it’s the truth, and it’s in the 3rd ring of knowledge for you at this point- you don’t know what ya don’t know-

 

[PAIRA90S]

A pinion seal shouldn't have lead to all this. Unless you're like me a WANT an excuse to upgrade anyway. SO, in the few I've done: new crush sleeve if the application has one;
Check the yoke for damage (mind blown when I first saw what a rubber seal can do to a yoke, or any wear surface) a machine shop can build up then turn back down to specs.
Change/add gear oil, check vent hose. The diff. gears can act like a mixer & air pressure builds up & can blow out (not "out" but bypass) the rubber seals, pinion & wheel. I've
never greased the outside of a seal. That's where it grips the housing, do we want that lubricated? Naaww. Inner, yeah that's cool. And finally, yeah I've rebuilt a differential. It worked. Now I can say I've done it. Now I know why I don't. Like body work, tedious. Sorry for chiming in so late in the process. I got this guy called a boss...

 

[Schurkey]

A pinion seal shouldn't have lead to all this.

From a certain perspective, it didn't.

What led to "all this" was the over-tightening of the pinion nut after the new seal was in place.

Check the yoke for damage (mind blown when I first saw what a rubber seal can do to a yoke, or any wear surface) a machine shop can build up then turn back down to specs.

Yeah, but with labor charges being what they are, it's probably better to just buy a new yoke. OR, install a repair sleeve on the damaged sealing surface of the yoke. Repair sleeves are relatively inexpensive, easy to install, and fairly long-lasting. The two downsides of the repair seals are that they increase the diameter of the yoke sealing surface. Not by much, but it is an increase, so the seal rides TIGHT on the repair sleeve. The second thing to consider is that when the seal wears-through the repair sleeve--which can happen but often doesn't because the vehicle gets towed off to the Treasure Yard before the seal wears through--the sleeve will cut the seal. It won't leak slowly, it'll gush.

https://www.oreillyauto.com/shop/b/engines---transmissions/transmission---transaxle/differential/differential-pinion-repair-sleeve/0249917d6955

Change/add gear oil, check vent hose.

Good reminder to check the vent.

I've never greased the outside of a seal. That's where it grips the housing, do we want that lubricated?

I think if you look back through this thread, the recommendation was to apply sealer to the outside, not lube.

The lube was for the ID, and back-side of the rubber sealing lips.

 

[PAIRA90S]

From a certain perspective, it didn't.

What led to "all this" was the over-tightening of the pinion nut after the new seal was in place.


Yeah, but with labor charges being what they are, it's probably better to just buy a new yoke. OR, install a repair sleeve on the damaged sealing surface of the yoke. Repair sleeves are relatively inexpensive, easy to install, and fairly long-lasting. The two downsides of the repair seals are that they increase the diameter of the yoke sealing surface. Not by much, but it is an increase, so the seal rides TIGHT on the repair sleeve. The second thing to consider is that when the seal wears-through the repair sleeve--which can happen but often doesn't because the vehicle gets towed off to the Treasure Yard before the seal wears through--the sleeve will cut the seal. It won't leak slowly, it'll gush.

https://www.oreillyauto.com/shop/b/engines---transmissions/transmission---transaxle/differential/differential-pinion-repair-sleeve/0249917d6955

Good reminder to check the vent.


I think if you look back through this thread, the recommendation was to apply sealer to the outside, not lube.

The lube was for the ID, and back-side of the rubber sealing lips.

I stand corrected. Strictly for myself, I still prefer dry install on OD. Just the way I learned I guess. I've seen both beliefs over the years.

 

[Vikingdude]

+1 on check your vent tube. Mine turned into a solid hunk of rust and stopped breathing.

 

[Isaacmacleod]

I blew out the vent tube with compressed air, it may have been slightly gunked up.

I Found a timken kit on Rock auto with more than what I need.

Planning on checking the backlash, ring gear pattern, and pinion depth before I take anything out, then popping out the carrier with the shims, the pinion and old pinion bearings and races, Out.

I fully plan on struggling and swearing my head off whilst trying to remove the old bearing and races from the pinion with the hydraulic press.

I’m a little confused about whether i need some used bearings which will loosely slide over the pinion

Just to roughly assemble everything and check gear pattern with varying shims before disassembling

and then reassembling with the final bearings once i have a good pattern/ backlash all that.

This seems silly because won’t the new bearings affect these measurements?

Idk but i’m considering buying a pinion depth measurement tool just to give me more peace of mind and confidence about this whole operation.