Fuel gauge sending wire disconnected= normal engine performance?

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2jduenas

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By the way, did you say that you have (or have not?) checked the condition / function of all the ground connections...

- ECU ground connections on the engine intake manifold

- body / frame / engine ground straps, found behind the engine on the passenger's side, sort-of between the exhaust manifold and the body

- I think there's a strap near the fuel tank that grounds to the frame, too, IIRC
I apologize for missing your question earlier. Yes, I replaced all the ground straps I could locate. However, I did not find an ECM ground strap connected to the intake manifold. If you are referring to the small ground wire that is bolted to the top corner of the plenum on the passenger side, closest to the bumper, then yes I cleaned this one up and reused it, it runs down to a bolt next to the MAF sensor.

Here are the ground connections I made:

1. Filler neck to the frame
2. Frame to the firewall on the passenger side
3. Frame to the back of the engine block passenger side
 

Road Trip

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Please reply back with whether your truck was built with single or dual gas tanks. Meanwhile,
I'm going to get some practice on those DTCs you posted...

Thank you, @Road Trip I appreciate you taking the time to dig on this issue. This truck does not have dual tanks nor has it ever from what I’m told.

Hello again 2jduenas,

Well, I underestimated the depth of the rabbit hole that your long-standing electrical issue represented. :0) But it's
the strange/counterintuitive problems that you learn the most from...as long as you stay with it 'til it's entirely fixed.

All of the following is troubleshooting food for thought, and at the end I'll try to pull it all together. Unfortunately, you
may have to read this 2 or 3 times in a row in order for it all to come together. (I'm not proud of that, but this is one of
those "I have to tell you everything before I can communicate anything" kind of problem. In other words, problems where
changing parts isn't going to fix the underlying issue require more diagnosis and troubleshooting theory than, say, changing
a sticky PCV valve. :0)

So here's a bulleted list of ideas I was working through:

* This problem may include a combination of computer detectable errors (DTCs, aka Diagnostic Trouble Codes) -and-
malfunction scenarios that either weren't anticipated by the coding diagnosticians or were considered too rare to try to fit into
the existing image space limitations...and we may have to fix all errors in both categories before the vehicle is returned to
working as designed.

Even so, we need to fix the obvious before we go after the exotic. And a lot of times fixing the obvious also solves the
exotic. In English, I'd like to clear up all the DTCs *before* we start trying to solve the 'no-DTC but it
still doesn't run right'
issues.


* When you have a single failing DTC, the best approach is to look it up in the Factory Service Manual (FSM) and follow
the General's diagnostic fault trees. But when you have several DTCs being kicked, it helps to dig into the wiring diagrams
in order to see if a shared Reference Voltage or Ground could be affecting several sensors at the same time. (!) Please keep
this
in the back of your mind when you are looking at my drawing #2 of 3 later on.

* I fully believe that you are seeing the DTCs that you reported in your initial post. At the same time, given
the wiring diagrams
in the FSM it is hard to explain how they are being generated? This is actually an important troubleshooting clue,
for
it would lead me to believe that the wiring in your truck no longer exactly matches what is documented in the FSM?

For example, given the DTCs and the way each of the sensors are failing, I believe that there are either one or more wiring faults
in your electrical harness that affects at least
3 sensors leading to a 'loss of signal due to intermittent loss of a shared +5v Reference
Voltage' fashion.

It's even possible that at some point over the past 26 years that a couple of logically
unrelated circuits were incorrectly
cross-connected during an attempted repair effort, leading to unique/strange vehicle behavior.
Given this, as a troubleshooter you
will have to approach every circuit as 'bad until proven good'. This can lead to more work than average. Difficult and
certainly a test of your patience, perhaps, but doable. (!)

* Has this truck ever worked correctly for you during the time that you have owned it? If it did work right, did anything
significant happen to it around the time that it went from good to bad? (Examples include being involved in an accident,
significant flood, #1 son got his driver's license and it broke mysteriously while he was out & about, etc. :0) No detail is too
large or small, for sometimes an important clue comes from something that seems to be a 'don't care' event.


****

OK, enough of the troubleshooting philosophy stuff.
In this first diagram I tried to group the reported failures by category. For example, most of the DTCs had to do
with 'out of band too low' signals from the sensors. The one exception was the P0463, which was a too high voltage
for the Fuel Level sensor? And this failure was consistently reported, no matter the status of the purple wire?

You must be registered for see images attach



This second page is where I spent most of my time. I was looking for shared power sources or sensor grounds that would
help to explain so many similar DTCs for these engine sensors:

You must be registered for see images attach

(NOTE: For the majority of the sensors just showing the +5v & ground wiring for clarity.)

And for those who ever wondered how the design engineers could determine that a constantly
varying analog signal is good vs a spurious signal from a open or shorted path, this is done by
forcing the signal to stay specified limits. This way, once the computer detects a voltage that's
either too close to either the +5v Reference or Ground, it can reliably declare an electrical failure.
Pretty neat:

You must be registered for see images attach



That's all I've got for now. Now that we've organized the DTCs by failure pattern, hopefully this will help us
narrow down where the intermittent connection(s) are in this engine bay.

Here's hoping that some of the other talent in this forum can take some of this 1st-pass failure analysis,
find any mistakes I've made, and take this to the next level. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me at
this time, but no doubt that it will once the problems are found and fixed.

Happy Hunting. Best of luck --
 

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2jduenas

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I apologize for missing your question earlier. Yes, I replaced all the ground straps I could locate. However, I did not find an ECM ground strap connected to the intake manifold. If you are referring to the small ground wire that is bolted to the top corner of the plenum on the passenger side, closest to the bumper, then yes I cleaned this one up and reused it, it runs down to a bolt next to the MAP sensor.

Here are the ground connections I made:

1. Filler neck to the frame
2. Frame to the firewall on the passenger side
3. Frame to the back of the engine block passenger side
 

2jduenas

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Hello again 2jduenas,

Well, I underestimated the depth of the rabbit hole that your long-standing electrical issue represented. :0) But it's
the strange/counterintuitive problems that you learn the most from...as long as you stay with it 'til it's entirely fixed.

All of the following is troubleshooting food for thought, and at the end I'll try to pull it all together. Unfortunately, you
may have to read this 2 or 3 times in a row in order for it all to come together. (I'm not proud of that, but this is one of
those "I have to tell you everything before I can communicate anything" kind of problem. In other words, problems where
changing parts isn't going to fix the underlying issue require more diagnosis and troubleshooting theory than, say, changing
a sticky PCV valve. :0)

So here's a bulleted list of ideas I was working through:

* This problem may include a combination of computer detectable errors (DTCs, aka Diagnostic Trouble Codes) -and-
malfunction scenarios that either weren't anticipated by the coding diagnosticians or were considered too rare to try to fit into
the existing image space limitations...and we may have to fix all errors in both categories before the vehicle is returned to
working as designed.

Even so, we need to fix the obvious before we go after the exotic. And a lot of times fixing the obvious also solves the
exotic. In English, I'd like to clear up all the DTCs *before* we start trying to solve the 'no-DTC but it
still doesn't run right'
issues.


* When you have a single failing DTC, the best approach is to look it up in the Factory Service Manual (FSM) and follow
the General's diagnostic fault trees. But when you have several DTCs being kicked, it helps to dig into the wiring diagrams
in order to see if a shared Reference Voltage or Ground could be affecting several sensors at the same time. (!) Please keep
this
in the back of your mind when you are looking at my drawing #2 of 3 later on.

* I fully believe that you are seeing the DTCs that you reported in your initial post. At the same time, given
the wiring diagrams
in the FSM it is hard to explain how they are being generated? This is actually an important troubleshooting clue,
for
it would lead me to believe that the wiring in your truck no longer exactly matches what is documented in the FSM?

For example, given the DTCs and the way each of the sensors are failing, I believe that there are either one or more wiring faults
in your electrical harness that affects at least
3 sensors leading to a 'loss of signal due to intermittent loss of a shared +5v Reference
Voltage' fashion.

It's even possible that at some point over the past 26 years that a couple of logically
unrelated circuits were incorrectly
cross-connected during an attempted repair effort, leading to unique/strange vehicle behavior.
Given this, as a troubleshooter you
will have to approach every circuit as 'bad until proven good'. This can lead to more work than average. Difficult and
certainly a test of your patience, perhaps, but doable. (!)

* Has this truck ever worked correctly for you during the time that you have owned it? If it did work right, did anything
significant happen to it around the time that it went from good to bad? (Examples include being involved in an accident,
significant flood, #1 son got his driver's license and it broke mysteriously while he was out & about, etc. :0) No detail is too
large or small, for sometimes an important clue comes from something that seems to be a 'don't care' event.


****

OK, enough of the troubleshooting philosophy stuff.
In this first diagram I tried to group the reported failures by category. For example, most of the DTCs had to do
with 'out of band too low' signals from the sensors. The one exception was the P0463, which was a too high voltage
for the Fuel Level sensor? And this failure was consistently reported, no matter the status of the purple wire?

You must be registered for see images attach



This second page is where I spent most of my time. I was looking for shared power sources or sensor grounds that would
help to explain so many similar DTCs for these engine sensors:

You must be registered for see images attach



And for those who ever wondered how the design engineers could determine that a constantly
varying analog signal is good vs a spurious signal from a open or shorted path, this is done by
forcing the signal to stay specified limits. This way, once the computer detects a voltage that's
either too close to either the +5v Reference or Ground, it can reliably declare an electrical failure.
Pretty neat:

You must be registered for see images attach



That's all I've got for now. Now that we've organized the DTCs by failure pattern, hopefully this will help us
narrow down where the intermittent connection(s) are in this engine bay.

Here's hoping that some of the other talent in this forum can take some of this 1st-pass failure analysis,
find any mistakes I've made, and take this to the next level. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me at
this time, but no doubt that it will once the problems are found and fixed.

Happy Hunting. Best of luck --
Thank you very much for your thorough insight. When I took ownership of this truck in Spokane, Washington, it wasn't running. I’ve always loved these OBS Chevys so after getting the transmission rebuilt, I managed to drive it from Spokane to San Diego, though it was a very sketchy and long drive. Once home, I replaced almost everything—sometimes twice. I learned the hard way not to buy critical parts from Amazon, especially sensors. The dealership parts cost me a fortune, with fuel injectors alone costing around $1,600. But the time and effort I’ve invested in this truck are priceless.

Here’s a list of what I've done so far:

- Transmission full rebuild at 223,000 miles
- Fuel filter (AutoZone)
- Spark plug wires (AC Delco, O’Reillys)
- Spark plugs (AC Delco, AutoZone)
- Distributor cap and rotor (dealership)
- Oil change
- Purge to manifold hose (junkyard)
- Battery (O’Reillys)
- Door handles (Amazon)
- Door lock cylinders (Amazon)
- Crankshaft positioning sensor (dealer GM)
- Hydroboost hydraulic brake booster (AutoZone)
- Fuel pressure regulator (dealer GM)
- Throttle position sensor, idle air control valve, and throttle body (GM original at dealership)
- Oil pressure switch (AutoZone)
- EGR valve (GM, junkyard)
- Upstream oxygen sensors (AC Delco)
- Downstream oxygen sensors (AC Delco)
- Rough Country 6-inch lift kit model 16130
- 22“ x 12“ Savage Hostile forged wheels
- Power Venom 35-inch mud terrain tires, new at 224,000 miles
- Alternator (AC Delco, Amazon)
- Starter (Amazon)
- Manifold absolute pressure sensor (AutoZone, AC Delco)
- Mass air flow sensor (MAF) (dealership)
- Idler arm (Amazon)
- Pitman arm (Amazon)
- Sway bar links (Amazon)
- Sway bar (Amazon)
- Tie rods (complete set, Amazon)
- Control arms and ball joints (Amazon)
- Towing mirrors (Amazon)
- Rear wheel spacers (Amazon)
- Steering wheel position sensor (RockAuto)
- True dual custom exhaust with FlowMaster Super 10 dual in-dual out
- Aluminum radiator (Amazon)
- Antifreeze flush
- Weather Guard toolbox with alarm system
- Tailgate (junkyard)
- Power steering pump (AutoZone)
- Master cylinder and new brake fluid
- Serpentine belt (6K1080) (K061080)
- Catalytic converters
- Fuel pump full assembly (GM)
- (8) fuel injectors (AC Delco)
- (5) ground wires
- intake air temperature sensor (ACDelco)
- Rear vehicle speed sensor (AC Delco, dealership)
- Front trans speed sensor (AC Delco, O’Reillys)

I know this might seem excessive, but I love this truck. By the time I’m done, it’ll be like having a brand new full-size truck. I would have done more if I didn't have three kids in sports and a wife who needs attention too. At this point, I’m seeing wires and diagrams in my head while trying to sleep—it’s driving me a bit nuts!

These drawings are exactly what I need. I've been working with a few diagrams and was confused about the connection at the dotted line. I suspect something is triggering the purple wire at that point, causing it to behave erratically.

I've taken some notes during my troubleshooting process and will attach them below. Today is my day off, so I plan to get into the truck and trace everything based on the information you provided.
 

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Road Trip

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Thank you very much for your thorough insight. When I took ownership of this truck in Spokane, Washington, it wasn't running. I’ve always loved these OBS Chevys so after getting the transmission rebuilt, I managed to drive it from Spokane to San Diego, though it was a very sketchy and long drive. Once home, I replaced almost everything—sometimes twice. I learned the hard way not to buy critical parts from Amazon, especially sensors. The dealership parts cost me a fortune, with fuel injectors alone costing around $1,600. But the time and effort I’ve invested in this truck are priceless.

...

I know this might seem excessive, but I love this truck. By the time I’m done, it’ll be like having a brand new full-size truck. I would have done more if I didn't have three kids in sports and a wife who needs attention too. At this point, I’m seeing wires and diagrams in my head while trying to sleep—it’s driving me a bit nuts!

These drawings are exactly what I need. I've been working with a few diagrams and was confused about the connection at the dotted line. I suspect something is triggering the purple wire at that point, causing it to behave erratically.

I've taken some notes during my troubleshooting process and will attach them below. Today is my day off, so I plan to get into the truck and trace everything based on the information you provided.

Greetings 2jduenas,

Your reply confirms my suspicion that you are a motivated GMT400 owner who is obviously willing to do what it takes to
get your machine to run reliably 100% of the time, performing the same/better as a new, yet much more complex/spendy truck.
You are in good company, for recently we worked through an intermittent No Crank/No Start after an engine swap with
@DHud on his '98 K1500. Even though it took awhile and it tested his patience, it was well worth the effort, since he
persevered & saw it through to a successful conclusion. (!)

And his scenario also included some strange symptoms that didn't make sense at the outset, but by the end everything added
up and we understood what the root cause was. (Intermittent No Crank after engine swap)

****

In other words, long term electrical issues do not have to become the reason why you must give up on a GMT400 & send it to the crusher.
(Although you may want to do just that after an evening of frustrating electrical wiring harness troubleshooting. :0)

But if we work through these problems methodically you will become even more comfortable with the electrical subsystem in your
8-lugger. Way more fun to drive old with no fear. Respect, sure. But being able to walk out to the parking lot and *knowing* that your
K3500 is going to start and run right (despite being old enough to legally drink) puts a spring in your step and the wind in your sails,
if you know what I mean. :0)

Last but not least, if we document the troubleshooting journey, warts & all, then when we push this over the troubleshooting finish
line it will provide a valuable reference for others troubleshooting similar issues in the future.

****

Alright, now that we're on the same page so to speak, here's a couple more thoughts I had after sleeping on what I wrote last night:

* Last night I acknowledged the shared sensor ground path, but my comments focused on the +5v Reference voltage. And then I went
into how the computer senses/flags a bad power or ground feed that interferes with the signal integrity of each sensor. I didn't elaborate
then, but because in that group of DTCs -all- of them were reporting a LOW signal is why I was focused on the loss of the +5v reference.

On the other hand, if you had instead listed the P0103/P0108/P0406/P0453 DTCs, then since all of these are reporting a too HIGH voltage
from the sensors, *then* I would have put emphasis on an intermittent loss of the ground signal. (See attached for the P0108 DTC in the
FSM, and note what error has to occur for this to kick the SES light on.)

Even so, since the Fuel Level Sender and the MAF do share this ground one way or the other, I wanted to include the ground circuit last
night for completeness. And no doubt that 1 or more grounds will no doubt be repaired over the duration of this repair project. But as of
right now it looks like the majority of the DTCs are due to a marginal path somewhere in circuit #474. (The Gray +5v Reference voltage wiring.)

Last but not least, I ended up using what I had on hand (the '99 Factory Service Manuals) in order to do the initial research on your problem
child. This has worked OK in the past, but since I can't guarantee that the '98 & '99 model years are identical, maybe we should both
download the '98 Factory Service Manuals from the (free) links found over here: ('88+ GMT400 FSMs)

If you don't already have the '98 Manuals to work from, then these will give you an unfair advantage during the upcoming debug process.
They aren't perfect, but they are better than anything else that's available. Actually, between the FSMs and this forum you end up with
more talent on hand (virtually) than just about any individul shop still willing to work on a GMT400 in 2024 has. (!)

More later. Happy Hunting --
 

Attachments

  • '98+ P0108 MAP sensor high (highlighted) - 99 Chevrolet & GMC CK Truck SM - Vol. 3 & 4.jpg
    '98+ P0108 MAP sensor high (highlighted) - 99 Chevrolet & GMC CK Truck SM - Vol. 3 & 4.jpg
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Road Trip

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I've taken some notes during my troubleshooting process and will attach them below. Today is my day off, so I plan to get into the truck and trace everything based on the information you provided.

Good stuff. Taking notes is invaluable, especially when working failures with complicated symptoms.
I'm going to reference some of your notes here:


You must be registered for see images attach


I like the fact that (A) you have discovered that you can change the behavior of the truck by jumpering
one of the grounds, and (B) you took the time to document your findings. (!)

Given this, I went to the '98 manuals and looked for the Fuel pump & sensor connector C130. Here is
what I found in the 7.4 section:

You must be registered for see images attach


NOTE: One of the positive aspects of the General's wiring harness documentation is that each individual circuit gets it's own nomenclature in the form
of a 'Circuit Number'. I am going to adopt this in order to avoid confusion - for example, which ground is which, for it *is* possible to incorrectly swap
them around during a connector repin/replacement during a repair effort.

OK, here are the pinouts:

A = WHT = circuit #1589 = analog signal representing tank fuel level to VCM. (NOTE: Also purple or purple/white seen on vehicles in the wild? See 2nd attachment.)
B = GRY = circuit #120 = Fuel Pump Motor Feed (From Fuel Pump Relay and/or Engine Oil Pressure Switch -- see 1st attachment)
C = BLK = circuit #150 = Fuel Pump Ground to G404 on the nearby frame. ("larger" ground wire to handle pump current -- see 1st attachment.)
D = BLK = circuit #470 = Fuel Level Sensor return to VCM sensor ground. (Pin 19 C3 -- "smaller" ground wire to handle fuel level sensor signal ground back to VCM. See 2nd attachment.)

NOTE1: I have switched to the '98 FSM for your problem. All of the attachments are from the '98 FSM.
NOTE2: In order to translate metric wire sizes listed in wiring diagrams to gauge sizes yanks recognize, the 3rd attachment is a wire size conversion table.

****

Alright, all of the above was just trying to take your test notes surrounding the grounding of the 'smaller' wire and
try to map it to the wiring diagrams in the FSM. Disclaimer: This is a bit of a swag, but the fact that the local grounding
of the sensor ground (that sinks back at the VCM) ...changed the behavior of the fuel level gauge *and* the way
that the engine ran + kicking DTCs makes me think that your VCM is on a different ground plane than the Engine?
Or, it could just be that attempting to locally ground the sensor ground may have set up a ground loop, with
current flow throwing the other sensor circuits off? As per usual, if you could pay close attention to each and
every ground going to the VCM this would be a good starting point.

A couple of final thoughts. I seem to remember that the original fuel pump & sensor connector was square in shape, and
that the rectangular shape came later, which may help to explain the difference between what's in the FSM vs your notes?
Maybe someone who has extensive experience in this area can shed some light in this area?

And my final thought is that sometimes when I can't get a particular circuit to work correctly in an aging wiring harness,
sometimes it's easier to simply run new wires (same/better than factory) alongside the originals, and move the functionality
to the new circuit paths. Think of it as individual 2024 refreshing to a 1998 harness. As a matter of fact, getting the
fuel level circuit to work (#1589) to work would be the obvious first place to consider trying this approach.

More in a bit. If there's an obvious mispinning discovered during a visual inspection, great! Otherwise, we need to
methodically reason our way through the malfunctioning circuits.

Food for troubleshooting thought.

Happy hunting --
 

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  • '98 Fuel pump power wiring diagram (single tank opt) - 1998_GMT-98_CK-4_SERVICE_MANUAL-VOLUME_...jpg
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  • '98 Fuel Sensor circuit #1589 - 1998_GMT-98_CK-3_SERVICE_MANUAL-VOLUME_3_of_4.jpg
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1998_K1500_Sub

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the fact that the local grounding
of the sensor ground (that sinks back at the VCM) ...changed the behavior of the fuel level gauge *and* the way
that the engine ran + kicking DTCs makes me think that your VCM is on a different ground plane than the Engine?

^^^ this

(edit: Read my following post, first).

Hey @Road Trip,

I don't know about you, but I'm thinking the VCM sensor ground circuit needs to be checked in detail:

- disconnect "small" black wire from any owner-added, non-factory ground in the rear

- disconnect the VCM sensor ground(s) on the intake manifold stud

- disconnect the VCM too, all connectors; this will remove / open the connection the VCM makes between the chassis ground and sensor ground

- confirm a low-resistance connection from "small" black ground to the now-disconnected VCM sensor ground lead(s) at the intake manifold

- confirm a relatively high (possibly not but not 0.2Ω either) resistance of the (now disconnected) VCM sensor ground to chassis ground. KEY: If this measurement shows a low resistance, then there's an extraneous ground connection on the VCM sensor ground circuit. It will likely show a modest resistance, because the other sensors (IAC, MAP) have not yet been disconnected.

- I might take this one step further and suggest:

-- Disconnect all devices from the VCM sensor ground (IAC, etc., including the VCM) and confirm resistance from the VCM sensor ground to chassis ground", then check for...

-- low resistance on that VCM sensor ground between all devices (e.g., put an ohmmeter on the sensor ground of the IAC's connector and that of the fuel tank sensor ground - small blk wire), check for low ~0.3Ω resistance... and do this for each device (IAC, MAP, VCM, etc.) to confirm continuity of the VCM sensor ground to each device it serves

I'm wondering if (a) previous owner hacked the VCM sensor ground somehow or (b) wear and tear (rubbed through insulation, whatever) has introduced a connection from the VCM sensor ground to chassis ground.
 
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1998_K1500_Sub

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This reminds me of a crank-no-start problem I debugged on a Dodge pickup.

In that case, the VCM's power ground (which is the VCM's ground connection to the chassis) was open-circuit. The VCM was half-alive tho, as it was using its sensor ground circuit as its power ground... which worked well enough for it to appear sane, but which was insufficient when the VCM tried to fire the injectors.

Take-away / To-do: Check the VCM power ground to the chassis. Do this by disconnecting all connectors to the VCM and then measuring the resistance between the relevant pins in the VCM's connector(s) and ground at the engine block.

This should measure ~0.2Ω.

Finally, check the VCM's internal connection it provides between chassis ground and sensor ground. With all the VCM's connectors disconnected, measure across the relevant pins of the VCM (sensor ground, chassis ground) and confirm ~0.2Ω.
 
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1998_K1500_Sub

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If you are referring to the small ground wire that is bolted to the top corner of the plenum on the passenger side, closest to the bumper, then yes I cleaned this one up and reused it, it runs down to a bolt next to the MAF sensor.

^^^ I'm confused, the MAF sensor is off-to-the-side in the intake tract :think: Did you mean the MAP sensor?

@Road Trip, where does the VCM sensor ground attach? My Suburban isn't nearby so I can't check, but IIRC there the VCM sensor ground is via two wires that connect via a single ring terminal to a stud on or near the coolant neck on the intake.

@2jduenas, if @Road Trip concurs, you should have one there as well.
 
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