Alignment disaster C1500

[Erik the Awful]

You can't have the spindle move up 2-3 inches as happens on most suspensions when loaded and not have a drastic toe change.

Sorry, but not true. If your suspension arms are parallel to the tie rods and the same length, you don't get toe change. With different length upper and lower arms, you can still find a point in the arc of suspension travel for a tie rod to mount and eliminate toe change. I highly recommend picking up a copy of this book if you haven't already read it.
www.amazon.com/Chassis-Engineering-Building-Performance-Handling/dp/1557880557/

You should not have drastic toe change. What are you calling "drastic"? We were getting about 1/2" of toe change on our MR2.

both wheels, noticeably the passenger, went toe out by a bunch.

@MountainDont, what do you define as "a bunch"?

 

[Schurkey]

You should not have drastic toe change. What are you calling "drastic"? We were getting about 1/2" of toe change on our MR2.

@MountainDont, what do you define as "a bunch"?

The right side will toe in 2 degrees, the left will toe in 1 degree. More or less. That seems to me a confirmed-by-alignment surety.

That's my understanding.

 

[Hipster]

Should I take their measurements and try to get it close myself? I could try it with wheels on the ground. My eyeball could get it closer than 3 degrees, lol.

Almost no caster will help it wander all over the place. You can never get to zero bump steer despite what anyone tells you, The inboard tie rod is mounted to the frame via idler, pitman, drag link at a fixed height, and the outboard tie rod will forever swing in an arc in relation to the inner as the suspension compresses and rebounds.

Idk, you put new parts on so it needs a new alignment. Most times the guys looking for upsells so really surprised they weren't recommending, didn't check anything, or that there was no discussion involved. Check everything, fix everything, and do one alignment.

 

[Erik the Awful]

The right side will toe in 2 degrees, the left will toe in 1 degree.

Thanks for pointing that out, @Schurkey. I missed that previously. 1-2 degrees is not what I consider "drastic". @Hipster, I'll agree that the suspension design on our trucks is such that we can't eliminate bumpsteer completely.

When I was a young tech, one of the detailers at the dealership asked if I'd align his Lincoln Town Car in exchange for detailing my RX-7. I worked on that turd for three hours, but every time I got it close, I'd turn the wheel and the alignment would change. His ball joints were all wasted.

Our trucks are old enough that I'd absolutely replace all four ball joints while in there. However, the SKP tie rod ends I put on my Mustang (when my kids were in high school and I was perpetually broke) were absolute garbage and one of them wore out in about 20k miles. I'd go with Mevotech.

 

[Nad_Yvalhosert]

It looks like we can do the ball joints tomorrow. I am still at a loss exactly what "alignment knockouts" are and where they are located. I saw a few threads, but I didn't find a description/location of them.

Take a look at post #20, the last 2 pics @Schurkey posted. Specifically the 2 frame brackets that the UCA attaches to. Now visualize the cam bolts removed. The bare frame has semi-perforated tears that open the hole into a slot. By using a specific tool (see below), or raw brute force, you can remove the little pieces of metal frame (called knockouts) and you're left with the ability to adjust the cams, moving the UCA through a range, into spec.

 

[Hipster]

@Hipster[/USER], I'll agree that the suspension design on our trucks is such that we can't eliminate bumpsteer completely.

Unless you limit suspension travel almost to zero or have rack/steering linkage that moves with the suspension travel you will always have some bumpsteer. It might only be .05 mm but it's there on short arm/long arm, strut, double wishbone, etc. The question then becomes is the equipment accurate and is it being checked while on turn plates. Not difficult to get out the grade school compass with the pencil and point as a demo. Draw a line up two inches and down two inches and check it with a straightedge. As rudimentary as it, I'll call it associated applied mathematics. I guaranty it isn't straight for zero toe in/out which would equal zero bumpsteer. Best set up, as you said, steering linkage/tie rods all parallel at ride height which can't always be achieved.

 

[MountainDont]

We ended up replacing the upper control arms. Those are hard to get to and torque those bolts. I guess we torqued them with the wheel off and the suspension hanging, using a jackstand under the frame. Should we loosen them and torque with the wheels on, or alternately just put a jack under the lower control arm to simulate that? We just got ahead of the procedure really on one side so far.

 

[MountainDont]

We ended up replacing the upper control arms. Those are hard to get to and torque those bolts. I guess we torqued them with the wheel off and the suspension hanging, using a jackstand under the frame. Should we loosen them and torque with the wheels on, or alternately just put a jack under the lower control arm to simulate that? We just got ahead of the procedure really on one side so far.

I actually saw that the service manual covers this procedure twice: once for during an alignment, the other to just replace the bushings.

In the former case, you have wheels on and they warn you to put a jack under the spring.

In the latter case, you just have to make sure the vehicle has a jackstand (or jack I suppose) under the area where the spring meets the lower control arm, and the wheels are still off.

We will just loosen and retorque with a jack under the coil spring on that one side.

 

[Schurkey]

If you have bonded-RUBBER bushings--OEM or aftermarket--the suspension MUST be at normal ride height before torquing the control arm bolts. On-the-ground with the wheels on; jacked-up with wheels off...doesn't matter so long as the control arms are at normal ride height in relation to the frame. If you are using a jack to load the suspension, the farther outboard you can put the jack saddle, the better. Directly under the lower balljoint would be ideal, but don't break-off the grease zerk, and that jack position makes it hard to get the wheel back on.

If you have NON-bonded Polyurethane/Delrin/Teflon/Whatever bushings, the suspension can be in any position when torquing. One of several reasons I prefer Poly bushings.