Alignment disaster C1500

[Erik the Awful]

it's normal to have the toe change drastically from no weight on the suspension to weight on the suspension.

Sorry, but absolutely not. Minor toe change is a usually unavoidable, but you shouldn't see big changes. My race team had an issue with wicked bumpsteer on our MR2 at Eagle's Canyon several years ago. We had a "bumpsteer correction kit" that didn't play well with the lowering kit, and we were getting drastic toe change, causing the car to dart a foot or more on bumps, at speed.

If any of your steering parts are out of place, making your tie rod angles wrong, you will get wicked toe change and bumpsteer. Did you install the tie rod ends into the tops or the bottoms of the knuckles? They should come up from the bottom. It should be obvious from the taper, but I've seen crazier stuff done. Our bumpsteer correction kit moved our MR2 tie rod ends from the top to the bottom.

Check to ensure you have the spindles on the correct sides. Make sure the steering center link is installed correctly. Make sure all your parts are seating fully in their tapers.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

Sorry, but absolutely not. Minor toe change is a usually unavoidable, but you shouldn't see big changes. My race team had an issue with wicked bumpsteer on our MR2 at Eagle's Canyon several years ago. We had a "bumpsteer correction kit" that didn't play well with the lowering kit, and we were getting drastic toe change, causing the car to dart a foot or more on bumps, at speed.

If any of your steering parts are out of place, making your tie rod angles wrong, you will get wicked toe change and bumpsteer. Did you install the tie rod ends into the tops or the bottoms of the knuckles? They should come up from the bottom. It should be obvious from the taper, but I've seen crazier stuff done. Our bumpsteer correction kit moved our MR2 tie rod ends from the top to the bottom.

Check to ensure you have the spindles on the correct sides. Make sure the steering center link is installed correctly. Make sure all your parts are seating fully in their tapers.

I can't speak to your race car but after doing thousands of alignments I'm going to disagree and stand by my original statement. You can't have the spindle move up 2-3 inches as happens on most suspensions when loaded and not have a drastic toe change. Geometry is geometry, the tie rod drops and is at an angle to the center link, and as the spindle moves up it moves the wheel (front or back depending on the set up) out as the tie rod becomes more parallel to the center link

 

[someotherguy]

The boots on those ball joints are cracked and leaking grease enough that they're ready for replacement just based on that, IMO. If you can't hold grease in and keep dirt and water out, they're not long for this world.

Testing ball joints has already been explained in this thread but I'll add to it by saying you should have a helper lifting the tire while you watch the ball joint for slack. A good, tight ball joint will have everything move as an assembly - control arms and spindle should move together. If you see any piece begin to move separately before its accompanying piece does due to slack in the ball joint, they're 100% toast.

People do 'em different ways but I support the front of the frame on stands so the tires are at least a foot off the ground, then use a long pipe, piece of wood, etc. as a pry bar and lift under the tire. While a helper lifts against the tire, watch your ball joints closely for movement.

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Richard

 

[Schurkey]

I bought a kit on Rock and replaced everything in the steering.

Define "everything". WHAT PARTS were replaced?

But I have not touched ball joints or control arms.

To me, that's very much not replacing "everything" in the steering. Based on appearance in your photos, I have a feeling you'll be replacing four ball joints, and all the control arm bushings. Which maybe means replacing all the control arms with "new" aftermarket arms.

Twice, we tried a quickie alignment with the wheels off and the truck jacked up.

Total mistake. Trying to make adjustments on a vehicle that doesn't have the suspension at normal ride-height is a fool's errand.

we did it by measurement a third time. Same thing, when it got weight back on the tires, it toed out. I figured that we should be close enough by doing it this way, using jack stands on the lower control arms where the coil springs attach.

Nope. Jack stands under the control arms inboard of the tires, means the springs don't have the same leverage on them as when the car is supported on the tires. The suspension is not at normal ride-height, although closer than when the wheels hanging free.

We both think it was the upper ball joint.

The BEST way to check that is to disconnect the ball joint stud from the taper in the steering knuckle. Wiggle the stud--if it's not fairly stiff as it's wiggled...it's worn-out.

Most folks won't go thru that much work. They'll check for looseness with the ball joint stud firmly in place.

Should I look for a bad control arm bushing instead, and if so, how?

Not "a" bad control arm bushing (there's eight of them) and not "instead" of verifying the ball joints. The phrase you're looking for is "in addition to". I would expect that original control arm bushings were completely shot by fifteen years from when the truck was built.

 

[MountainDont]

I installed an SKP kit. It included 12 pieces, but I didn't do the ball joints yet, so replaced 8 pieces. https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=14721801

I was just thinking about bump-steer. You know, if one side of my truck in its current condition ever hits a bump and weight lifts off that tire, the suspension is setup to toe in immediately when that happens. The right side will toe in 2 degrees, the left will toe in 1 degree. More or less. That seems to me a confirmed-by-alignment surety. It will bump steer due to geometry in the front.

And you're saying that is normal, since I should never have aligned it in the air with the jack stands under the control arms and should not care what that measured alignment is. But also I probably have a bad something somewhere t.b.d.

One reason I didn't hit the ball joints is to determine if the control arms need to be removed and worked on, which would make a ball joint job easier either doing them on the bench or by replacing an arm that comes with ball joints.

I'll get to more investigating this weekend, but I want to thank those who replied. And thanks mods for approving my ball joint pics, I had waited on that.

 

[Schurkey]

Define "everything". WHAT PARTS were replaced?

I installed an SKP kit. It included 12 pieces, but I didn't do the ball joints yet, so replaced 8 pieces. https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=14721801

Translation:
Inner tie rod ends--two
Outer tie rod ends--two
Tie rod sleeves--two
Pitman arm--one
Idler arm but not the idler arm bracket--one

So you could--and probably do--have excessive wear at the idler bracket. Tie rod sleeves don't really wear out, so they hardly count when replacing them. Replacing tie rod sleeves is more a matter of convenience--a person doesn't have to free them up after they've rusted to the tie rod ends.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=14721801

I was just thinking about bump-steer. You know, if one side of my truck in its current condition ever hits a bump and weight lifts off that tire, the suspension is setup to toe in immediately when that happens. The right side will toe in 2 degrees, the left will toe in 1 degree. More or less. That seems to me a confirmed-by-alignment surety. It will bump steer due to geometry in the front.

Bump-steer is designed into the suspension geometry of most vehicles. Whether yours has more than intended I can't say. Point is, bump steer is a fact of life. GM has determined acceptable levels of screwed-up suspension geometry. GM actually sabotages handling characteristics in order to "keep people out of trouble"; if the vehicle handled better they'd drive faster; and Granny would object to the stiffer power steering, stiffer springs, and without excessive body roll, ordinary non-car-enthusiasts wouldn't realize they're cornering near the limits of adhesion.

But also I probably have a bad something somewhere t.b.d.

My suspicion is that you have multiple "bad somethings", TBD.

One reason I didn't hit the ball joints is to determine if the control arms need to be removed and worked on, which would make a ball joint job easier either doing them on the bench or by replacing an arm that comes with ball joints.

There's some wisdom in that. It's really easy to rip the upper control arms off and merely replace them with aftermarket arms having new ball joints AND new control arm bushings. I did that with my '97 K2500 plow truck. OTOH, I put new BJs and Poly control arm bushings into the original upper arms of my '88 K1500.

I put bushings and BJs into the lower arms of the '88, and I never did work up the ambition to put bushings into the lower arms of the '97, although the BJs got replaced during a hub-bearing crusade.

 

[someotherguy]

If you're only going to do ball joints, it's easier to do them on the truck because you won't be doing the extra work of removing the control arms from the frame. The lower is pressed in and you'll need a ball joint press kit to press it out and the new one in. The upper is riveted in, and you'll need to grind the heads off the rivets and/or drill through them.

HOWEVER. With all that other stuff bad, the control arm bushings are probably bad too; and you can save yourself a lot of work by just getting "loaded" control arms - full replacement arms with bushings and ball joints already installed. Then you can also remove the alignment knockouts, saving yourself some potential labor cost from the alignment shop when they have to remove them to get enough range to properly align it.

Edit: I see Schurkey and I were typing at the same time recommending loaded control arm full replacement.

Richard

 

[MountainDont]

It looks like we can do the ball joints tomorrow. I am still at a loss exactly what "alignment knockouts" are and where they are located. I saw a few threads, but I didn't find a description/location of them.

 

[scott2093]

I am still at a loss exactly what "alignment knockouts" are and where they are located.

Where the upper control arms mount is where they are on my 93 k1500

Volume 2 of your service manual has your suspension section

88-98 Service Manuals

Over the years I have collected a bunch of GM service literature. Links to PDF Scans of service and STG manuals and a links to the Parts manuals. You'll need the FREE Adobe Acrobat reader to open these files. Get it directly from Adobe here {http://get.adobe.com/reader/} If you're not...

www.gmt400.com

 

[Schurkey]

It looks like we can do the ball joints tomorrow.

Excellent. You probably want to entirely remove the upper arms so you can check/replace the control arm bushings.

Photos from my '88 K1500.

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Polyurethane bushing inserts are easier to work with than OEM rubber.

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But you'd better hope that your inner steel sleeves are in better condition than the ones in my '88 K1500. I had to fabricate new ones.

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You'll find the "knockouts" and eccentrics on the brackets that hold the upper control arm.

I am still at a loss exactly what "alignment knockouts" are and where they are located.

The upper control arms are bolted through the "knockouts" which are part of the brackets welded to the frame. Most trucks have round holes for the bolts that hold the control arm to the brackets on the frame. The area around the round holes is scored. Using the correct "special tool"--or cheating with incorrect tools--the round holes get oblonged horizontally which allows the bolts to move in and out, allowing the upper control arms to change the alignment angles of camber and caster.

The movement of the control arm within the oblong holes is limited with the eccentrics. I have no photos of the actual knockouts, but they'll be in the service manual set for your vehicle you should download from the links in the Sticky thread section of the Engine forum of this web site.

These photos are from my '97 K2500. The eccentrics (but not the bolts) of my '88 K1500 are welded in place. I scribed lines on the eccentrics so that I could put them back exactly as I found 'em when the new control arms went in.

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