Pushrods still spinning after torquing down rocker arms

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Schurkey

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watch Ellison's Very simple, foolproof & reliable method of setting Hydraulic lifters ... works with either HFT or HR
It takes that guy until 4:44 before he FINALLY acknowledges that his "procedure" applies ONLY to engines with adjustable valvetrains.

THERE
IS
NO
"SETTING"
THE
LIFTERS
ON
THIS
ENGINE.

The rocker arms ARE NOT ADJUSTABLE on Gen 5/6 BBC as they come from the factory. (There are aftermarket kits available to make them adjustable.)

For stock, unmodified engines, torque the rocker bolts to spec according to service manual procedure. DONE.
 
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rebelyell

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It takes that guy until 4:44 before he FINALLY acknowledges that his "procedure" applies ONLY to engines with adjustable valvetrains.

THERE
IS
NO
"SETTING"
THE
LIFTERS
ON
THIS
ENGINE.

The rocker arms ARE NOT ADJUSTABLE on Gen 5/6 BBC as they come from the factory. (There are aftermarket kits available to make them adjustable.)

For stock, unmodified engines, torque the rocker bolts to spec according to service manual procedure. DONE.
I did get that THIS OP's motor is Gen 5/6 BBC; and thus has No adjustable valve train. I am familiar with this as well as the retrofits for this motor and other non-adjustable including sb Mopar.

However, seems most who participate here are in the sbc camp. So, I include this for them. However, I believe the same principle of installing "dry" lifters applies here (Gen 5/6 BBC) as well.
I fully understand how so many cannot accept the "dry" lifter method, seems you too --- and for decades, I was as well. But, I've pulled too many New lifters apart and found contamination, grit, swarf and congealed assembly grease from manufacturers. I disassemble all of them now; New or used. I also have benefit of a nearby shop that can and does correctly reface-radius flat tappets.

FWIW, I just double-checked a GM Powertrain Service Manual for most recent iteration of Gen 1 sbc --- neither soaking or filling its hydraulic lifters are mentioned in its rather detailed repair section on installing lifters.

I also recognize how you are also quite experienced; posting regularly on this forum as well as on others. But there's no need to "YELL" at others who may be similarly experienced.

Does Ellison's video have great production qualities ? No, not particularly. But the good info's there; one may have to watch it more than once. Maybe make notes to clarify ordination; i did.
 

jonas454

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Mark IV big-blocks had adjustable rockers just like small-blocks. Gen 5, 6, and 7 big-blocks have "net lash" rocker system. They're torqued to spec, and the geometry is worked-out so that it automatically achieves acceptable lifter preload.
Does that mean I can torque all of them down to 40 ft.-lbs without turning the motor over and tightening them one by one.
 

Supercharged111

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Does that mean I can torque all of them down to 40 ft.-lbs without turning the motor over and tightening them one by one.

Only risk there is you putting the load of an open valve against the threads on the head. Probably low threat in an iron headed stock valve spring application. But if it were me I'd get #1 at TDC and torque 8 valves, spin it 360 and do the other 8 so they all torqued while on the cam's base circle.
 

Erik the Awful

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I've seen both methods, installing lifters dry and installing them full of oil. I think installing them dry will give you a more accurate adjustment, but you stand a higher chance of a lifter not pumping up. I don't like dry parts, and my mentors all favored lubing the lifters before installation.

I completely agree with disassembling and cleaning all the lifters before installation, no matter which method you choose.
 

Road Trip

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Does that mean I can torque all of them down to 40 ft.-lbs without turning the motor over and tightening them one by one.

Greetings jonas454,

Whether sitting in a diner in the middle of the night tanking up for the remaining all-nighter session or remotely
as we are doing here, the best method to install a pushrod valvetrain is guaranteed to generate a lively debate.
There are so many variables. Adjustable? Non-adjustable? If non-adjustable, do we need to change the pushrod
length because the cylinder heads were skimmed/straightened or the block was decked...or both?

If adjustable, is the resulting rocker arm geometry with our total combo still good? (ie: Is the rocker arm contacting
the valve stem tip in the right spot?) And so on and so forth. And on top of all this the 1st gen SBC remained
adjustable throughout the GMT400 production run, while the BBC went from adjustable to non-adjustable starting
with the Gen V 454. {EDIT: Gen V started back in '91. The move from peanut port to Vortec oval port was in '96.
Apologies for adding to the confusion.}

1999 vortec 454 in a 1999 k2500 suburban

OK. So I looked at my copy of the '99 FSM (I also own a '99 454) for what the design engineers were
instructing the dealer technicians to do. It was a good read, and I've attached the 2 pages in a .pdf
file that will give you an easily read copy to work with.

The first thing that stood out to me was that @Supercharged111's concern *is* addressed by the
FSM procedure:

Only risk there is you putting the load of an open valve against the threads on the head. Probably low threat in an iron headed stock valve spring application. But if it were me I'd get #1 at TDC and torque 8 valves, spin it 360 and do the other 8 so they all torqued while on the cam's base circle.

And in case you don't have a way of opening up .pdf files, here's the procedure that covers your engine:

You must be registered for see images attach


You must be registered for see images attach


So there you have it. Assuming all stock parts, you have a Gen VI 454 with a non-adjustable valvetrain, and the FSM
has a 9-step procedure that allows you to torque the rocker arm retainer bolts to 40 ft/lbs, each one while that valve is seated,
thereby putting the associated valve springs at their lowest tension. (Thinking about it, following this procedure now the only parts
moving during the tightening process is the rocker arm > pushrod > plunger inside the hydraulic roller lifter.)

No doubt that several people reading this didn't go to all the trouble to avoid torquing these rocker arm bolts while under fully open
big block valve spring pressure and lived to tell the tale. And I am not one to advocate that the only way to do things is by a
assembly procedure written 25 years ago. However, I do recommend always *starting* with reviewing the factory procedure, followed
by searching for what's been learned since then, and if there's a new, better way, then I will decide upon my approach, and if asked
why I deviated from the General's recommendations, then I will have all my ducks lined up and can explain/defend my process.

****

By the way, good on you for pushing for clarification instead of just throwing your big block together. (!)
This is the way that true professionals operate - they know what they know, and they know what they don't
know, and don't hesitate to ask for clarification once they reach that line. It's the smartest way to do
business when working with something as complex as a '99 Vortec 7.4.

Hope this proves helpful --
 

Attachments

  • Gen V rocker arm installation - '99 FSM procedure.pdf
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someotherguy

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Greetings jonas454,

Whether sitting in a diner in the middle of the night tanking up for the remaining all-nighter session or remotely
as we are doing here, the best method to install a pushrod valvetrain is guaranteed to generate a lively debate.
There are so many variables. Adjustable? Non-adjustable? If non-adjustable, do we need to change the pushrod
length because the cylinder heads were skimmed/straightened or the block was decked...or both?

If adjustable, is the resulting rocker arm geometry with our total combo still good? (ie: Is the rocker arm contacting
the valve stem tip in the right spot? And so on and so forth. And on top of all this the 1st gen SBC remained
adjustable, while the BBC went from adjustable to non-adjustable starting with the Gen V 454. ('96+ Vortec)



OK. So I looked my copy of the '99 FSM (I also own a '99 454) for what the design engineers were
instructing the dealer technicians to do. It was a good read, and I've attached the 2 pages in a .pdf
file that will give you a easily read copy to work with.

The first thing that stood out to me was that @Supercharged111's concern *is* addressed by the
FSM procedure:



And in case you don't have a way of opening up .pdf files, here's the procedure that covers your engine:

You must be registered for see images attach


You must be registered for see images attach


So there you have it. Assuming all stock parts, you have a Gen V 454 with a non-adjustable valvetrain, and the FSM
has a 9-step procedure that allows you to torque the rocker arm retainer bolts to 40 ft/lbs, each one while that valve is seated,
putting the associated valve springs at their lowest tension.

No doubt that several people reading this didn't go to all the trouble to avoid torquing these rocker arm bolts while under fully open
big block valve spring pressure and lived to tell the tale. And I am not one to advocate that the only way to do things is by a
assembly procedure written 25 years ago. However, I do recommend always *starting* with reviewing the factory procedure, followed
by searching for what's been learned since then, and if there's a new, better way, then I will decide upon my approach, and if asked
why I deviated from the General's recommendations, then I will have all my ducks lined up and can explain/defend my approach.

****

By the way, good on you for pushing for clarification instead of just throwing your big block together. (!)
This is the way that true professionals operate - they know what they know, and they know what they don't
know, and don't hesitate to ask for clarification. It's the smartest way to do business when working with something
as complex as a '99 Vortec 7.4.

Hope this proves helpful --
As always very thorough so please don't take this as criticism -

Gen V big blocks were TBI, Vortecs were Gen VI. And you're correct, those are non-adjustable valvetrain, too. I'm no expert on the variations but I do believe this began in 1991.

My 1993 7.4, non-adjustable:

You must be registered for see images attach


BTW here's the Comp Cams kit to make them adjustable. It's a reasonably designed kit, but the locknuts aren't the best choice IMO. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-4514-KIT - current pricing $166. I remember when it was only about $100. :( of course, that was 14 years ago.

Richard
 
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Road Trip

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As always very thorough so please don't take this as criticism -

Gen V big blocks were TBI, Vortecs were Gen VI. And you're correct, those are non-adjustable valvetrain, too. I'm no expert on the variations but I do believe this began in 1991.

Richard,

Sincere thanks for pointing out that factual error - I really don't want to misinform. (!)

I went back and performed a marked EDIT in order to minimize any confusion for those reading this
thread in the future. I was thinking about the move from the peanut port to the Vortec oval port,
but that in itself has nothing to do with the fact that the BBC valvetrain was adjustable from '65-'90,
and non-adjustable (stock) from '91 onward, for both Gen V & VI 454s.

My 1993 7.4, non-adjustable:

You must be registered for see images attach



Richard

Just like when any good team is debating something, the real deal truth always gets hammered
out and becomes self-evident. And there are never any hard feelings on the team after the fact,
for the push is to uncover the most-correct answer in order to meet the needs of the mission,
not to prove any one individual is the most correct. It's professional, not personal.

Again, thanks for the correction, and the way it was shared. I'm looking forward to Jonas454
reporting that he has his big block back online and earning it's keep. These old big blocks
represent some of the best engineering there is when it comes to robust engines that will
work hard for hundreds of thousands of miles. Good stuff!
 
Last edited:

jonas454

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Greetings jonas454,

Whether sitting in a diner in the middle of the night tanking up for the remaining all-nighter session or remotely
as we are doing here, the best method to install a pushrod valvetrain is guaranteed to generate a lively debate.
There are so many variables. Adjustable? Non-adjustable? If non-adjustable, do we need to change the pushrod
length because the cylinder heads were skimmed/straightened or the block was decked...or both?

If adjustable, is the resulting rocker arm geometry with our total combo still good? (ie: Is the rocker arm contacting
the valve stem tip in the right spot?) And so on and so forth. And on top of all this the 1st gen SBC remained
adjustable throughout the GMT400 production run, while the BBC went from adjustable to non-adjustable starting
with the Gen V 454. {EDIT: Gen V started back in '91. The move from peanut port to Vortec oval port was in '96.
Apologies for adding to the confusion.}



OK. So I looked at my copy of the '99 FSM (I also own a '99 454) for what the design engineers were
instructing the dealer technicians to do. It was a good read, and I've attached the 2 pages in a .pdf
file that will give you an easily read copy to work with.

The first thing that stood out to me was that @Supercharged111's concern *is* addressed by the
FSM procedure:



And in case you don't have a way of opening up .pdf files, here's the procedure that covers your engine:

You must be registered for see images attach


You must be registered for see images attach


So there you have it. Assuming all stock parts, you have a Gen VI 454 with a non-adjustable valvetrain, and the FSM
has a 9-step procedure that allows you to torque the rocker arm retainer bolts to 40 ft/lbs, each one while that valve is seated,
thereby putting the associated valve springs at their lowest tension.

No doubt that several people reading this didn't go to all the trouble to avoid torquing these rocker arm bolts while under fully open
big block valve spring pressure and lived to tell the tale. And I am not one to advocate that the only way to do things is by a
assembly procedure written 25 years ago. However, I do recommend always *starting* with reviewing the factory procedure, followed
by searching for what's been learned since then, and if there's a new, better way, then I will decide upon my approach, and if asked
why I deviated from the General's recommendations, then I will have all my ducks lined up and can explain/defend my process.

****

By the way, good on you for pushing for clarification instead of just throwing your big block together. (!)
This is the way that true professionals operate - they know what they know, and they know what they don't
know, and don't hesitate to ask for clarification once they reach that line. It's the smartest way to do
business when working with something as complex as a '99 Vortec 7.4.

Hope this proves helpful --
I can't tell you how happy this makes me thank you for taking your time. I really really appreciate it and I can't comprehend what kind of info is in the Internet thank you
Jonas
 
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