TBI 350 Running Rich

Disclaimer: Links on this page pointing to Amazon, eBay and other sites may include affiliate code. If you click them and make a purchase, we may earn a small commission.

scott2093

I'm Awesome
Joined
Apr 23, 2023
Messages
1,138
Reaction score
995
Location
Florida
But to go from following the computer codes blindly to analzying the live data, Schurkey-style, and
fixing the issue way before a code is every kicked is the goal. But just like anything good, it's a
journey. Start with codes, add the blinky lights for free, use this to learn the underlying theory of
operation, and if you are still interested in pursuing this skillset, invest in a live data scan tool,
whether it's a period-correct Snap-On brick, dealership Tech 1 or Tech 2 tool, or something more
modern that can still reach all the way back to OBD-1 land.
For sure. also, I just realized I'm an idiot thinking I can record with my phone scanner and take a video of my cel on the dash at the same time since I have to jump the aldl....Well, I suppose I could eventually do that with some creative splicing...

Anyway, is it recommended to reset my computer before taking this diagnostic video....??

Thank you for all of this gold..!
 

Road Trip

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2023
Messages
1,717
Reaction score
4,864
Location
Syracuse, NY
Anyway, is it recommended to reset my computer before taking this diagnostic video....??

Yes.

****

IF your truck runs well on the factory tables after the reset you should note little/no difference in driveability.
All is well.

On the other hand, I've run into the situation where I change out a part, disconnect/reconnect
the battery, and while the area I was working on is now fixed, the engine is running a bit
funky for the first few miles until the computer can tune around a drifted component elsewhere
on the engine.

Most people will ignore this hint if everything settles out after a drive or two. But this behavior
is a hint that there's another tired part still in the mix. You don't have to go crazy and fix
every minor issue, but those who take the hint can watch the live data and see what's going on,
and decide whether it's worth it to them to pursue the latent anomaly.

A lot of people think that the goal is to get the engine to run right during Closed Loop operation.

The actual goal is to get the engine to run right straight off the factory tables (Open Loop) and
then make sure that running Closed Loop just makes it run that much cleaner/better, instead of
a whole lot worse.
 
Last edited:

scott2093

I'm Awesome
Joined
Apr 23, 2023
Messages
1,138
Reaction score
995
Location
Florida
The actual goal is to get the engine to run right straight off the factory tables (Open Loop) and
then make sure that running Closed Loop just makes it run that much cleaner/better, instead of
a whole lot worse.
Yes my truck seems to run great in open loop although I can't say I've ever taken off until it's in closed.........closed loop is usually worse.....

....And the truck usually likes to give me hope and run great for a short time after any repair (reset computer?) but, it always seems to go back into the all familiar feeling that things aren't what they could be.
This low BLM is just something I'd love to figure out even though the truck isn't really feeling like it's broken... But, that good feeling in open loop and any time after a repair should be the norm I'm guessing....
 

Road Trip

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2023
Messages
1,717
Reaction score
4,864
Location
Syracuse, NY
There are a total of 16 memory locations which
the computer climbs like stairs as we go from no load idle to full throttle grade climbing. Each memory location
will have the BLM value in it for the power range that this memory location is responsible for.

Here's a little more detail, courtesy of L31MaxExpress's quality time in the TBI
A/F rabbit hole: (Chart of how the RPM vs Load range is divvied up into the 16 BLM cells.)

Tip of the hat to the guys that are taking this abstract theory and using it to get these
old road warriors calibrated to run so well.
 

Road Trip

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2023
Messages
1,717
Reaction score
4,864
Location
Syracuse, NY
Jeez...
I think I'll grasp calculating tube load lines before understanding any of this. Not that I won't eventually...
Good call. IIRC the Elders who really grokked that stuff tended to have the wild hair and 100-yard stare. (Vacuum tube load line graphs)
Listening to them talk about all things having to do with analog circuits was like drinking from the
fire hydrant of knowledge. In person, they just exuded that feel of benevolent aliens from
outer space. :0)

****

So you have a '110 BLM' problem that you need to futher define. And today we've been
discussing watching the SES light and try to get a general feel for where your powerplant
is happy or sad. We are at one end of the EFI troubleshooting/tuning continuum.

And what's on the other side of this continuum? Here's a too rich issue where BLM values
(aka long term fuel trims) have been extracted from a driving log file and broken down into
individual cells in a spreadsheet: (Scientific diagnosis of an engine running too-rich)

This is the kind of stuff that made me decide that I needed to actually join this forum.

Of course the easiest way to learn all this is to get familiar with these tools on a perfectly
running vehicle first. This way it's easier to see the difference between good & bad. On
the other hand, if we accept the factory tables as the original 'known-good' and we're
still using a stock/near stock engine, then we can infer what's going on by looking at the
spots where the computer has kept trying to tune around an issue until it hits the limits
of what it's allowed to compensate for.

Where am I going with all this? Start with the basic Open Loop vs Closed Loop theory as
explained in the FSM. Then dip your toe into getting a feel for how this engine mgmt theory
works while you are driving. And if you are still interested in all this stuff, then I would proceed
to start down the same path that @PlayingWithTBI is on.

Anyway, that's my plan. There's already so much quality info that's been crammed into this
forum that it will still be awhile before I've got anything to add in this area. But this is the
general direction I'm headed.

****
Yes my truck seems to run great in open loop although I can't say I've ever taken off until it's in closed.........closed loop is usually worse.....

....And the truck usually likes to give me hope and run great for a short time after any repair (reset computer?) but, it always seems to go back into the all familiar feeling that things aren't what they could be.
This low BLM is just something I'd love to figure out even though the truck isn't really feeling like it's broken... But, that good feeling in open loop and any time after a repair should be the norm I'm guessing....

I agree with that last statement. If we consider the engine and the feedback loop as 2 interdependent
variables, then we can end up in any 1 of the 4 possible scenarios:

* Engine good, Feedback loop good. (Never a problem, Open or Closed Loop.)
* Engine bad, Feedback loop good. (Engine not quite right cold, but good all warmed up...until the feedback loop can't compensate any further.)
* Engine good, Feedback loop bad. (Engine runs great Open Loop, runs not as good after warming up due to Closed loop misbehavior.)
* Engine bad, Feedback loop bad. (A lot of used GMT400s are sold this way, can be real head scratchers. Main reason why Schurkey sez old O2 sensors = R&R asap.

Given the above, it's entirely possible to start off with a fresh reset, everything is running super sharp,
and then because of an uncorrected problem in the powerplant, the Closed Loop long term
fuel trims are always pushed into the stops. Sure, the engine still runs, but it isn't running
right. Is your engine noticeably misfiring? If so, then you need to bring yourself up to speed
on the counterintuitive 'False Lean' scenario. (Schurkey & others has discussed this at length
elsewhere in the forum.)

****

But this is plenty enough theory for now. We gotta start somewhere, just like the tuner gurus in here did.

And if new truck prices were going from $80K back towards $8,000, and gas was returning to $1/gallon, then
we wouldn't have to make the effort to learn *any* of this. But I don't think those numbers are in our future,
so I know that if I want to keep the chore truck in my personal fleet then I need to bone up on all this stuff.

Good thing I enjoy reading other people's posts and studying their project photos. And I hope to
eventually have something to show for it. (Think big block chore truck with a super sharp tune and
a unique 'presence' that my grandsons will be able to appreciate/remember their granddad by. :0)
 
Last edited:

scott2093

I'm Awesome
Joined
Apr 23, 2023
Messages
1,138
Reaction score
995
Location
Florida
In English, once you get the hang of Field Service Mode, you will be able to figure out not only when the
Closed Loop is working properly, but also when it isn't. You having a '110 BLM' tells me that for some
reason the computer is trying to lean out your system in order to get the reported A/F ratios correct.
But with the SES flashing light show you can tell me all the times that it's good vs bad:

* Lean, but only during larger throttle openings. (Fuel delivery restriction pre-regulator?)
* Rich, but only during smaller throttle openings. (Minor Dribbly TBI nozzle = uncontrolled fuel delivery)
* Rich all the time (FPR setting always too high?)
* Lean all the time (PO swapped in a 350, but left the original 305 TBI computer in place?
Took a video. Will post it and notes when I can...

One thing that is standing out is everything seems kosher .... light throttle, heavier throttle...steady cruising low or higher speeds...

But almost always when completely letting off accelerator to coast to a slower speed ( 55mph to 45mph for example) or letting off the accelerator to coast to a stop, and sometimes at the stop while idling...
It goes rich../ light stays on long.....

One time when on the accelerator pretty good from second gear pulling away from a right hand turn red light, the truck went rich during acceleration... hmm.. Pretty sure I had similiar accelerations in the drive that didn't....just this one time...

Backing up into my driveway it went rich when I put it in park idling....then evened out...then I turned ac off and it went rich again..... light stayed on...For a long few seconds and I wasn't thinking and shut truck off.... but the light stayed solid for pretty long....

Neat
 
Last edited:

Road Trip

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2023
Messages
1,717
Reaction score
4,864
Location
Syracuse, NY
But almost always when completely letting off accelerator to coast to a slower speed ( 55mph to 45mph for example) or letting off the accelerator to coast to a stop, and sometimes at the stop while idling... It goes rich../ light stays on long.....

Alright. We are getting some hints about which of the 4 possible failure scenarios we are in. Let's review what you observed.

1) Your feedback loop appears to be working correctly, but the failure in fuel delivery is more than it can tune around. (!)

It is measuring an out of control too-rich mixture, and in response you are observing the SES blinky light duty cycle
is high, denoting a rich condition...but only under specific driving conditions! (And also verifying a '110 BLM'.)

Your computer is detecting excess fuel (actually detecting zero oxygen in the exhaust stream and can't get it to
cross the 450mV threshold) and is trying to trim it. But obviously there's a component failure where for some
unknown reason too much fuel is being served up, and now the computer is against the preprogrammed stops
in it's attempt to lean it all out further in order to run stoich.

IMPORTANT NOTE: This is much different than a 'too-rich' scenario where the engine is OK, but
for some reason the BLM command is hovering around 150. It can make a big troubleshooting difference
if the feedback loop is bad while the good engine is the victim. In your case, it looks like the feedback loop
is operating properly, but we have something causing a loss of fuel control, causing the feedback loop to
be pegged try to correct for this. Meanwhile, it's still correctly sensing the error.
Does this make sense?

For what it's worth, here's a paragraph from the Code 44 (Lean) & Code 45 (Rich) section of the FSM
that tells us what the the BLM numerical error reporting thresholds are:

You must be registered for see images attach



****

Let's make sure that your Field Service Mode is working as expected. Does it
flash rapidly from a cold start for a minute or two? That is, can it properly
report Open Loop operation? (I'm going to assume so for the moment.)

What stands out to me is that your description of your SES light operation
during deceleration is exactly opposite of what I would expect given the
following description in the FSM:


You must be registered for see images attach



When it comes to fuel delivery, we can be observing 1 of 4 possible scenarios:

* Fuel delivery is always correct from cold idle through hot full throttle, and everywhere in-between.
* Fuel delivery is too rich or too lean *across the entire range*. Wrong injector size vs computer calibration, Fuel Pressure Regulator misajusted/bad, etc.
* Fuel delivery is OK during light loads, but fails to keep up during heavy driver demand. (Insufficient Fuel pressure/fuel delivery volume issue.)
* Fuel delivery is OK during medium/heavy throttle, but is too rich during idle, light throttle, or during deceleration. (Out of control fuel delivery that's
covered up during medium or full throttle operation, but is bad enough that it disrupts light throttle/no throttle operation. (Think dribbly injectors,
misadjusted/bad TPS, MAP sensor that's drifted away from small throttle position values, etc.)

I think that the blinky light Field Service Mode is already starting to tighten up your problem description.
Is it possible that for some reason your system has lost the ability to cut fuel delivery back beyond a certain limit?
But at the same time the above is just informed guesswork on my part. And doing this remotely,
I could be completely oblivious to something obvious, like a leaky exhaust or visibly ancient O2 sensors.

By the way, does your TBI system start flashing rapidly as you get near full throttle operation,
denoting Open Loop operation? (BTW, the correct answer is *yes*, since best power A/F ratios
are richer than stoich (14.7:1) ...and our era narrow-band O2 sensors are only accurate within a
close distance to this chemically correct value.

Speaking of which, has your truck ever run right for you? If so, when was the last time it really
drove well? And did anything remarkable happen to the truck when it transitioned from good
behavior to what it's currently doing?

****

The more specific you can be with when your truck gets it right vs. flashing the 'too rich' SES light show,
the easier it will be for us to give better guidance. But if you reread the oxygen sensor description above,
notice that they want you to use a scan tool to see what BLM values are in which cells. So it sounds like
you can use the Field Service Mode to help figure out when the engine gets it right vs getting it wrong.

And if you still don't have the necessary info to indict a replaceable part, then according to the FSM
you need to use a scan tool to find out what values are in the individual BLM cells.

To summarize, it sounds like we're starting to home in on the problem areas. Sounds like we're having
a fuel control issue. Since the TBI is so dependent upon the MAP & TPS sensors, I wonder what
their live data looks like? For example, is the TPS misadjusted so that it can never report a low
enough voltage to tell the computer that the throttles have returned to the idle position?
And how about the live data from the MAP?

And of course there's the scenario where the TPS & MAP sensors are good, the O2 sensors
seem to be good, so it's not a signalling issue, but it ends up that one of the shower nozzles
is dribbling enough uncommanded fuel that it's impacting the ability to idle & decelerate properly?

Finally, we might be looking at a persistent misfire during high intake manifold conditions? But I don't
think this is the case, for a False Lean would drive your BLM value high, not low?

****

I am confident that we will find a solution for this 110 BLM & suboptimal driveability that you are
experiencing.

Looking forward to hearing more specifics of when your truck gets it right as well as when it's
running too rich.

Hope this proves helpful.
 
Last edited:

scott2093

I'm Awesome
Joined
Apr 23, 2023
Messages
1,138
Reaction score
995
Location
Florida
In your case, it looks like the feedback loop
is operating properly, but we have something causing a loss of fuel control, causing the feedback loop to
be pegged in terms of how far it's allowed to compensate. Meanwhile, it's still correctly sensing the error.
Does this make sense?
Yes
For what it's worth, here's a paragraph from the Code 44 (Lean) & Code 45 (Rich) section of the FSM
that tells us what the the BLM numerical error reporting thresholds are:
I'm certain the flashing always settles to off/on as normal (1 second flashes) within 15 seconds ( more like a couple of seconds...saw an instance or two when it was close to 10 seconds rich...)so I'm guessing that's why it's never setting a code.

Let's make sure that your Field Service Mode is working as expected. Does it
flash rapidly from a cold start for a minute or two? That is, can it properly
report Open Loop operation? (I'm going to assume so for the moment.)
Yes for sure. One thing I thought was interesting is that, usually when I'm warming up the truck, I'll wait until I hear that little change in idle and assume it's in closed loop. I heard this slight change in idle and the light was still flashing rapidly but, as soon as I took off, it started the 1 second interval, showing it went to closed loop...

* Fuel delivery is OK during medium/heavy throttle, but is too rich during idle, light throttle, or during deceleration. (Out of control fuel delivery that's
covered up during medium or full throttle operation, but is bad enough that it disrupts light throttle/no throttle operation. (Think dribbly injectors,
misadjusted/bad TPS, MAP sensor that's drifted away from small throttle position values, etc.)
I'm definitely in this category if having to choose. Although light throttle is perfect afaik.........

I could be completely oblivious to something obvious, like a leaky exhaust or visibly ancient O2 sensors.
exhaust is possible I suppose... Put a new collector on when I did my torque converter/flex plate.......I suppose O2 could be too but it's fairly new GM whatever, maybe 6 months, and seems to be operating as normal any time I look... Perhaps a bit sticky? lazy at times I've thought to myself and maybe brought up over different threads at times....

By the way, does your TBI system start flashing rapidly as you get near full throttle operation,
denoting Open Loop operation? (BTW, the correct answer is *yes*, since best power A/F ratios
are richer than stoich (14.7:1) ...and our era narrow-band O2 sensors are only accurate within a
close distance to this chemically correct value.
No. Will do another run being more aggressive but , I'd have to say no for now. I suppose I should reset computer again before testing...

Speaking of which, has your truck ever run right for you? If so, when was the last time it really
drove well? And did anything remarkable happen to the truck when it transitioned from good
behavior to what it's currently doing?
Yes it has run really well many times. Even after changing the fuel filter recently and doing some wire diagnostics and repairs, with the battery disco, it ran great for a while after. Should I take off in open loop and see how it runs in general? can I force open loop?
After valve adjustments, it ran like a banshee...etc... but It always goes back into the old reliable, hey I'm an old truck, what do you expect, feeling.... still nice enough but not what I know it can do since it just did it if that makes sense.. I mean it's a machine right?

Looking forward to hearing more specifics of when your truck gets it right as well as when it's
running too rich.

Hope this proves helpful.
for sure! Wonder if I should splice into or jump from the back of the aldl so I can screen record my android scanner while recording the ses light activity at the same time.... I think I have another phone I could relegate to video duty....
Thank you!
 
Last edited:

Road Trip

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2023
Messages
1,717
Reaction score
4,864
Location
Syracuse, NY
can I force open loop?

Yes. By disconnecting the O2 sensor, the computer will see the loss of activity on this input,
revert to Open Loop operation, and also set the SES light. (Assuming you are not in Field Service Mode.)

NOTE: If you do this my expectation would be that in Field Service Mode you should only
see constant, nonstop fast blinks from the SES light, indicating Open Loop operation.

****

TBI OPEN LOOP operation review:

Just a quick recap on how simple the TBI system is conceptually. It is referred to as
a Speed Density system. In it's essence it monitors how fast the engine is turning
(the Reference signal from the dizzy sensor) and how deep it's breathing (by
monitoring how close the intake manifold is to atmospheric pressure via the
Manifold Absolute Pressure {MAP} sensor.)

The computer uses these 2 primary inputs to address the correct spot in the
fueling tables to retrieve just how many milliseconds** the injector needs to be pulsed
in order to deliver the 'correct' calibrated fuel shot.

1) So, for passable steady state operation, all that is absolutely needed is the MAF sensor
and the Reference (rpm) signal. You could even have a 'locked out' spark advance set
for a set amount of timing. (Say, 32° total advance.)

2) Of course, I failed to mention that the above setup only works best at a single, specific
ambient (and engine) temperature. So, in order to give this super-simple setup the ability to work as
well in sub-freezing temperatures or in AZ heat, we'll add the ECT (Engine Coolant Temperature)
and possibly a further optimization IAT (Intake Air Temp) in additional tables in order to refine the
base fuel calculation as necessary to compensate for temperature changes.

3) But while OK steady state operation at a single rpm is OK to support a steady load on a generator,
if we take this engine and put it into a car or truck, then the engine will be expected to
run well during the transitions from one rpm and load to a different rpm & load.

4) So in order to optimize the transient response, then the engineers added a TPS. (throttle position sensor)
And after spending maybe 10x as much time & effort in this area, (vs the steady state calibration) we
now end up with an engine that is responsive, even snappy when the human depresses the gas pedal.

For inputs, we're now up to the following inputs telling the computer what's going on:

* Reference Voltage
* MAP
* ECT
* TPS

5) The timing is still locked at 32°. And the computer is *expecting* (but can't directly monitor) the fuel
pressure to be a constant, not a variable on the input side to the injector. As well as expecting the
fuel injectors to work as designed no matter how many millions of cycles that accrue on them over the years.
(2000 rpm x 4 injections per rpm = 8,000 injections per minute. So how many injections occur on a highway
cruise for a single hour? 8,000 x 60 = a cool 480,000 fuel injections. Wow. (!)

Of course, all the sparky types have been reading the above, and stewing that we have yet to
take the locked-down 32° ignition timing and optimize it for everything from starting to cruising
to pulling a long grade while fully loaded. So we are going to start the engine on the base timing
that the mechanic set up by twisting the TBI's HEI distributor.

Once we get over ~400 rpm, then computer starts constantly adjusting the ignition timing in order
to get the Air/Fuel mixture to be expanding the most right when the piston is ~10° after TDC.
(Top Dead Center) More lookup tables.

6)And the Knock Sensor(s) are also added in order to dial this back a bit to protect the engine if too
much advance is calculated for the conditions / bottom tier gas is being fed to the machine.

7) Of course, there's always one more thing. ~80% of the air that surrounds us is made up of
Nitrogen. And Nitrogen is inert, doesn't burn like Oxygen. But if we subject Nitrogen to combustion
temps in excess of ~700°F, it will break down into Oxides of Nitrogen. (NOx) And this is the main
pollutant of photochemical smog. (The first time I drove into the soup surrounding LA during a
thermal inversion it was a real eye-opener.)

So the engineers came up with a mechanism to dilute the intake charge with a small percentage of
inert gas sourced from the exhaust stream, and this is how we keep our engine's combustion temps
close, but not over this magic limit.

To recap, the computer is now juggling the following variables:

* Reference Voltage
* MAP
* ECT
* TPS
* Spark Timing / Ignition Advance
* KS
* EGR control

Sure, there's now quite a bit going on. Bur the Reference voltage & the MAP inputs are the key,
and all the rest are just optimizations piled on top. But there's a case for each of them to be
included into your engine bay.

****

Guess what? All this is going on without the O2 sensor connected. (!) Welcome to Open Loop operation.


Just no BLM's. No crossover counts, no worries about exhaust leaks, using the wrong silicone sealers,
or leaking antifreeze into the exhaust stream.

Just like our old carbureted engines. The carb was a mechanical fueling computer, substituting brass jets,
metering rods, air bleeds, and needle & seat for code in the computer and injectors being electrically pulsed.
And of course a vacuum advance can working in parallel with spring-loaded centrifugal weights to alter the
timing advance for the variables of load and rpm.

To reiterate, Closed Loop is how the engineers were able to take a set of emissions controls that might
pass the test for 7,000 miles Open Loop, and by local error detection/compensation get these same parts
to pass emissions for 70,000 miles in order to meet Federal Clean Air Laws. A bit of a oversimplification,
but essentially the concept is valid.

So this is why we want to fix the engine & the sensors so that they will run correctly in Open Loop operation.

And then we want to reconnect the Closed Loop and make it resume operation this 10x better/cleaner/longer
operation. Or if you are watching the crossing-counts, this is equal to how many times per second the engine
is being fine-tuned while you are driving. At 5 crossings per second on the highway, that's 300 tunings per
minute. And that's ~18,000 fine tunings for every hour spent on the highway. (!)

****

So, sure, disconnect your O2 sensor and see if your engine drives alright. Of course we no longer
have the blinky lights to work with...but if you have a OBD1-compatible scan tool we can still
watch the live data. So I guess the plan would be to confirm where your engine is getting the
fueling wrong & see if you can match up any driveability issues to these A/F anomalies.

Then disconnect the O2 sensor and see if this makes your truck drive the same, better, or worse.

And if necessary, we'll eventually take it to the next level using live data. (Seems like you are
experimenting with a phone app for live data?) But the tighter we can define the problem the
easier it will be to use the live data to figure out what part(s) are no longer working to spec.

PS - Here is where we stop and be thankful that we aren't working with the 'even cleaner/tighter'
Vortec setup, adding a MAF sensor, 8 individual injectors, downstream O2 sensors to monitor
the conversion efficiency of the cats, P1345 CMP/CKP issues, failure prone crab cap, etc. :0)

****

**For a point of reference, a single human eye blink lasts anywhere from .1 to .4 seconds.
This is 100 to 400 milliseconds. In comparison, at idle our fuel injectors may be pulsed
from ~1 to 4 milliseconds. Injectors shoot fuel more like camera shutters than human
blinking. Very fast, very precise when all is working to plan. (!)

EDIT: Here's some neat info & injector waveforms from the Snap-On site. (Injector signals)
 
Last edited:
Top