98 K1500 motor swap but no start

[Road Trip]

A1: No history of issues with Starter - truck started fine every time with old motor - no hesitation. Reinstalled same starter with new motor assuming it would be fine. Starter looks pretty worn, but when taken out, it operated as expected.

A2: The only behavior change since the beginning are 2 things: 1) Upon initial startup process, I could get the motor to crank without ignition. When adding ignition, it did the "ping, dead" thing. The first time this happened, I was able to unplug the ignition and get the motor to crank again, but after plugging the ignition in and trying a second time (getting the same results as the first) I could no longer get the motor to crank even without ignition plugged in. From that point on, no matter ignition or none, the motor will not crank. The only result I get is "Ping, Dead". 2) As of today, the power is not coming back on at all - or at least within the hour that I had at home before leaving. Where it would previously return within 5 minutes, it has not yet returned. Battery terminals and Fuse Bus terminals still read as before - right around 12v. I have not checked AC or Radio or headlights - I just noticed there were no dash lights or sounds... which is a new situation. I can and will doublecheck all of these things (including Ohmmeter check) when I get home again later this afternoon.

Either way, I feel like I need to get a good inspection of the starter - or even just replace it for precautionary purposes...

DHud,

No doubt you are aware that we are dealing with something out of the ordinary. Doesn't mean that
it can't be fixed, but it does mean that we are going to have to assume everything is bad, and go
through the effort of proving to ourselves that each piece of the powerplant puzzle is good.

But before I lose an observation in the following, I find it interesting that you were able to crank the
motor over with the Ignition disconnected. But after reconnecting the Ignition we're having the
Ping no crank symptom?

Q: Did you use the CKP sensor from the original engine, or did you use the one that was already
installed in the replacement motor? The reason I ask is that GM had a TSB where a malfunctioning CKP
sensor would add up to 50° of timing advance during cranking, and this would cause the motor to kick
back so hard that it would actually damage parts? (Please read the attached TSB for details.)

As for the 'no crank at all', you are saying that you get an audible "Ping, then dead"? Not complete silence, as
in zero power? Be sure to check that 40A Ign A fuse, for it may have blown in all the excitement?

****

If possible, (assuming the 40A IGN A fuse is good) I'd like you to once again disconnect the Ignition
and see if we can't get the engine spinning over? If it will, do NOT reconnect the ignition yet until
we can figure out what might be going on with the CKP sensor? (My theory is that the replacement
motor might have a malfunctioning CKP sensor that's described in the attached TSB, for this would
explain the sudden mysterious cranking behavior coincident with the engine swap?)

****

I know, this all sounds like wild stuff, but this seems to be an unusual post engine-swap behavior,
and it's best to include all possibilities after all the more probable solutions have been tried.

For what it's worth --

 

[DHud]

Back to a question that hasn't been answered , Can engine be turned by hand and not starter ? Another thought while it's dead have you got voltage to underhood fuse block fuses and relays ? If engine will turn by hand and you have voltage to underhood fuses and relays the next step would be to look at power going from underhood fuse block to ignition and dash fuse block

Yes I can turn the engine by hand. I did have voltage to underwood fuse block, but now I don't anymore. It looks like the Aux B 30a fuse is blown. It was not before...

 

[DHud]

DHud,

No doubt you are aware that we are dealing with something out of the ordinary. Doesn't mean that
it can't be fixed, but it does mean that we are going to have to assume everything is bad, and go
through the effort of proving each piece of the puzzle is good.

But before I lose an observation in the following, I find it interesting that you were able to crank the
motor over with the Ignition disconnected. But after reconnecting the Ignition we're having the
Ping no crank symptom?

Q: Did you use the CKP sensor from the original engine, or did you use the one that was already
installed in the replacement motor? The reason I ask is that GM had a TSB where a malfunctioning CKP
sensor would add up to 50° of timing advance during cranking, and this would cause the motor to kick
back so hard that it would actually damage parts? (Please read the attached TSB for details.)

As for the 'no crank at all', you are saying that you get an audible "Ping, then dead"? Not complete silence, as
in zero power? Be sure to check that 40A Ign A fuse, for it may have blown in all the excitement?

****

If possible, (assuming the 40A IGN A fuse is good) I'd like you to once again disconnect the Ignition
and see if we can't get the engine spinning over? If it will, do NOT reconnect the ignition yet until
we can figure out what might be going on with the CKP sensor? (My theory is that the replacement
motor might have a malfunctioning CKP sensor that's described in the attached TSB, for this would
explain the sudden mysterious cranking behavior coincident with the engine swap?)

****

I know, this all sounds like wild stuff, but this seems to be an unusual post engine-swap behavior,
and it's best to include all possibilities after all the more probable solutions have been tried.

For what it's worth --

The Crank Position Sensor is the original one from my truck with the original motor.

 

[docstoy]

Have you downloaded service manual info for your truck from sticky thread above thread section ? Do that and look in electrical manual for your particular fuse and what is on that circuit

 

[docstoy]

Next thing will be to ck for voltage from battery to fuse panel and then onto next fuse /component in circuit so that now you may be able to find root cause of problem . Reason I wanted you to verify engine would turn by hand was to make sure it would rotate and nothing had dropped into cylinder causing interference so that it wouldn't turn or rotate . Sorry for my backward way of thinking/writing not as good as Road Trip at explanations or descriptive writing.

 

[Road Trip]

The Crank Position Sensor is the original one from my truck with the original motor.

Well, that doesn't support my working theory. Just trying to cover all the bases.
Before we leave this topic, did you note anything unusual during the install, or
was it smooth sailing? If while turning the engine over by hand, have you happened
to hear any dragging/physical interference between the base of the CKP sensor
and the crank reluctor underneath?

****

Just to recap, since it's easy to lose the context during remote troubleshooting.

* This engine can be turned over smoothly by hand with a ratchet on the front
balancer bolt in the crank snout?
* Has the starter quit responding to cranking requests? Has the IGN A or CRANK
fuse blown? If not, and there's 12V at the purple wire connected to the starter
solenoid, then we need to remove the starter and have it bench tested at a local
parts store providing this free service.

IF the engine will spin over by hand, and the starter is good, then we should be
able to spin the engine? At least with manual jumpering, and especially if the ignition
is also disconnected? This would be my goal at the moment. And once we can get
this spinning at will, then we can layer on the other stuff.

NOTE: If there's any question of a possible hydrostatic lock due to an unknown liquid
leak, we could eliminate that concern simply by removing all 8 spark plugs & seeing
what happens.

As a matter of fact, let's make this as simple as possible for the starter to succeed.

1) Recharge the battery back to 100%.
2) Remove all 8 spark plugs while waiting on the charger to finish.
3) Remove 12v power from the ICM & Coil. Verify that the engine spins over by hand with no tights spots anywhere in the rotation.
4) Check cranking fuses. Get the 12v power to show everywhere on the truck. (Parking lights, headlights, radio, fan, etc.) Take note of anything not powering up.
5) Crank the engine over by manually jumpering power to the starter with the Ignition disconnected. Including NOT losing power to the rest of the truck for 3-5 minutes. (!)
6) Replace the starter relay and see if you can duplicate successfully cranking the engine over using the key. Including NOT losing power as per step #5.

7) If you get to this point successfully, time to evaluate whether "removing the coil wire" in order to crank the
engine over to build oil pressure before firing (which I also do) may have wounded the ICM? For example,
removing the 12v power to the ICM & Coil will disable the ignition.

However, if the 12v power was still connected to the ICM and the Coil, and just the high voltage wire between
the Coil & the distributor cap was removed, then the Coil voltage would go sky high (45+Kilovolts) ...and if this
'mucher higher than normal' voltage shorted from the Coil's secondary winding back to the primary winding, then
this would couple that high voltage back into the ICM, blowing the logic that normally only deals with toggling the
12v to the primary windings On & Off. Not fair, but it has happened in the past...

In English, which way did you disable the Ignition system in order to accomplish the engine prelube effort?

****

By the way, please don't read *any* judgement into the above. One way or another, anyone posting in this
forum has been in very similar (if not the exact same) situation as you are currently in. I have empathy for
what you are going through. :0)

I've added a couple more baby steps to our building block approach. Reading between the lines, I've added
a check to eliminate the possibility of an incompressible liquid being trapped in one of the cylinders and causing
an unexpected "Ping, no crank" scenario.

Full battery, truck shows electricity all over. Good. Pull all 8 plugs, verify engine can be rotated by hand.
Starter now has easiest possible chance of turning engine over. OK. Can the no compression engine be cranked
by the starter and also not lose power to the entire truck? And so on and so forth.

Between your patience and all the talent/experience in the audience, we should be able to step-by-step prove
that each part added to the mix is a good part. And eventually this ol' dog is going to start. (!)

I look forward to your next update. We will marry this engine to your existing truck, locating/eliminating any
discovered weakness along the way. Electrical or mechanical.

Happy Hunting. Standing by awaiting your next status report.

 

[DHud]

Well, that doesn't support my working theory. Just trying to cover all the bases.
Before we leave this topic, did you note anything unusual during the install, or
was it smooth sailing? If while turning the engine over by hand, have you happened
to hear any dragging/physical interference between the base of the CKP sensor
and the crank reluctor underneath?

****

Just to recap, since it's easy to lose the context during remote troubleshooting.

* This engine can be turned over smoothly by hand with a ratchet on the front
balancer bolt in the crank snout?
* Has the starter quit responding to cranking requests? Has the IGN A or CRANK
fuse blown? If not, and there's 12V at the purple wire connected to the starter
solenoid, then we need to remove the starter and have it bench tested at a local
parts store providing this free service.

IF the engine will spin over by hand, and the starter is good, then we should be
able to spin the engine? At least with manual jumpering, and especially if the ignition
is also disconnected? This would be my goal at the moment. And once we can get
this spinning at will, then we can layer on the other stuff.

NOTE: If there's any question of a possible hydrostatic lock due to an unknown liquid
leak, we could eliminate that variable simply by removing all 8 spark plugs.

As a matter of fact, let's make this as simple as possible for the starter to succeed.

1) Recharge the battery back to 100%.
2) Remove all 8 spark plugs while waiting on the charger to finish.
3) Remove 12v power from the ICM & Coil. Verify that the engine spins over by hand with no tights spots anywhere in the rotation.
4) Check cranking fuses. Get the 12v power to show everywhere on the truck. (Parking lights, headlights, radio, fan, etc.) Take note of anything not powering up.
5) Crank the engine over by manually jumpering power to the starter with the Ignition disconnected. Including NOT losing power to the rest of the truck for 3-5 minutes. (!)
6) Replace the starter relay and see if you can duplicate successfully cranking the engine over using the key. Including NOT losing power as per step #5.

7) If you get to this point successfully, time to evaluate whether "removing the coil wire" in order to crank the
engine over to build oil pressure before firing (which I also do) may have wounded the ICM? For example,
removing the 12v power to the ICM & Coil will disable the ignition.

However, if the 12v power was still connected to the ICM and the Coil, and just the high voltage wire between
the Coil & the distributor cap was removed, then the Coil voltage would go sky high (45+Kilovolts) ...and if this
'mucher higher than normal' voltage shorted from the Coil's secondary winding back to the primary winding, then
this would couple that high voltage back into the ICM, blowing the logic that normally only deals with toggling the
12v to the primary windings On & Off. Not fair, but it has happened in the past...

In English, which way did you disable the Ignition system in order to accomplish the engine prelube effort?

****

By the way, please don't read *any* judgement into the above. One way or another, anyone posting in this
forum has been in very similar (if not the exact same) situation as you are currently in. I have empathy for
what you are going through. :0)

I've added a couple more baby steps to our building block approach. Reading between the lines, I've added
a check to eliminate the possibility of an incompressible liquid being trapped in one of the cylinders and causing
an unexpected "Ping, no crank" scenario.

Full battery, truck shows electricity all over. Good. Pull all 8 plugs, verify engine can be rotated by hand.
Starter has easiest possible chance of turning engine over. OK. Can the no compression engine be cranked
by the starter and not lose power to the entire truck? And so on and so forth.

Between your patience and all the talent in the audience, we should be able to step-by-step prove that each
part added to the mix is a good part. And eventually this ol' dog is going to start. (!)

I look forward to your next update. We will marry this engine to your existing truck, locating/eliminating any
discovered weakness along the way. Electrical or mechanical.

Happy Hunting. Standing by awaiting your next status report.

I appreciate the tutorial! No judgment felt on my part - I'm new to this level of mechanics and am I'm happy to be a sponge for the collective wisdom of others like you. To answer your question, "which way did you disable the Ignition system in order to accomplish the engine prelube effort?" At the advice of a friend who has swapped motors before (mostly 50's stuff), we unplugged the Wire from the Distributor Cap to the top of the Coil. Sounds like that was a bad idea... Which Schurkey in #2 threw out there early on...

 

[Road Trip]

I appreciate the tutorial! No judgment felt on my part - I'm new to this level of mechanics and am I'm happy to be a sponge for the collective wisdom of others like you. To answer your question, "which way did you disable the Ignition system in order to accomplish the engine prelube effort?" At the advice of a friend who has swapped motors before (mostly 50's stuff), we unplugged the Wire from the Distributor Cap to the top of the Coil. Sounds like that was a bad idea... Which Schurkey in #2 threw out there early on...

No worries. Back in the day our vintage points-based ignition systems just didn't make enough spark
that they could hurt themselves. I never thought twice about disconnecting the high voltage coil wire when
I wanted to engine to crank but not fire. You know, one of the things us old guys miss about the good ol' days is
just how forgiving a dirt simple points dizzy/carbureted SBC was. (!)

Not any more, for the HEI systems *bring it*. They will zap both you and themselves if given a chance.
And for whatever reason the 'last gasp' distributor ignitions for the 'more HP yet lower emissions' Vortec
versions of the SBC are pretty unforgiving when we don't dot our wrenching i's and cross our maintenance t's.

I'm just looking forward to you getting a rational electrical subsystem in your truck and
regaining control over your engine.

PS - Schurkey has been troubleshooting on the public stage for a long long time. You can pretty much take
anything he shares straight to the bank. :0)

Best of luck with the hunt for getting this powerplant to hit on all 8...

 

[docstoy]

Keep following Road Trips tutorial diagnosis procedure your going to cover all the bases and learn a thing or three, I believe Shhurkey and Road Trip are correct on the ICM, probably think max advance and good probability why it won't crank/start . More than likely one of those lessons where everytime you think about it you kick yourself in the backside . But everyone here has had there share of those. Best of luck, look forward to reading outcome

 

[DHud]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you all...while I'm trying to get this truck running, we are also fostering twin 2yr old boys!!! Quite a juggling act these days at our house. I will go back and run through the protocol as best as I can manage it and let you know what I find out. Won't get to it till this weekend most likely. If the ICM got toasted by my misstep, what's the solution? Boneyard? I might be able to get the ICM off the truck I got the motor out of...
Thanks again for all your help. I feel like I've got these mechanic sages walking me through their years of experience! Can't beat it! Love the process and can't wait to pass it on to my 16yr old son (who is helping me and also hoping to take possession of this truck someday ; )