I Experienced Vapor Lock on a TBI

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L31MaxExpress

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Plywood, now think about this for minute. It's flammable. It soak up liquids. It can swell from moisture. It dry's out , shrink from heat. It does not have a true flat surfaces. It can be porus, containing air channels. Need more?
This is not a problem with regular trucks styles. That's why pressurized fuel injection beats carburetor. The electric pump pushing fuel negates any boiled fuel in the lines.
Is this a joke. Are you trying to fix a problem that's not there.
There isn't much fuel in the throttle body to begin with. If you don't understand the physics. Haven't you ever wondered why no one has mentioned vapor lock in there fuel injection auto's? :3811797817_8d685371
I have had MPFI systems vapor lock. The returnless style are the worst about it.
 

Sean Buick 76

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I’ve used wooden carb spacers for years without an issue. A skim of gas resistant RTV on the edge where the fuel touches and they will be fine for years. Wood makes a very good insulator, better than the plastic ones. I’ve heard the Phelonic spacers are better insulation vs the metal or plastic spacers but likely not as good as wood.
 

Richndaytona

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Fuel line insulation. This may not be the answer, sounds like your problem is in a different direction but wanted to share something that worked for me.

I have a 73 Blazer with a 454, I chased vapor lock for a couple years and almost got use to it. I want to HD and bought some pipe insulation, 4-5 pieces at 8’ ea and some foil tape for duct work. Spent $15 or so. I insulated my supply line from the tank to the pump and anywhere else I could reach. Wrapped the foil tape around all the way (which looks pretty cool) and NEVER HAD A PROBLEM AGAIN.

Hope this helps someone. Thanks for everyone’s support on this forum.
 

Road Trip

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Why would it surprise you that there was only OBD. That's all there was.

No surprise over here. I'm old enough to have lived through the conversion from manufacturer unique
terms in engine bays to the '96 adoption of the 'industry-wide' terms created by the Society of Automotive Engineers.

The point I was trying to make is that terms we use in everyday conversation in 2024 to discuss specific components
or subject areas may or may not be found in the pre-OBD2 GM FSMs. (My hidden agenda is to demystify the FSM library
and entice more GMT400 owners to take full advantage of them.)

It is what it is. Until the revised and more restrictive OBD I I , standards were implemented beginning in 1996. Second phase of On Board Diagnostic.

I was aware of '96 being the transition year for OBD2, but couldn't remember when did the original OBD come into being?

Turns out the original OBD originated via CARB (CA) in '91:

You must be registered for see images attach


If look in the 1996 CK-1 manual. General Information, chapter 0A-17, SAE J1930 Standards Conversion. Look down to lines seven and eight. It not for nothing, there are reasons why things are done certain ways.

Great point! Thanks to the Internet Archive, the SAE J1930 standard isn't hidden behind a paywall. It's an interesting read:


Since we are a virtual neighborhood, and the written word is how we collaborate, I actually find the SAE J1930 standard an
interesting read. Some things, like moving from GM specific phrases like Integrator & Block Learn to Short Term & Long Term
Fuel Trims is a good thing. Other SAE ideas like replacing the term AIR with SAI (Secondary Air Injection) was ultimately rejected,
and I also agree with the outcome.

One big concern at the time was that there was a feeling that (prior to the OBD2 adoption) all these proprietary engine mgmt
systems & terminology was making it prohibitively expensive for the individual shop owner to invest in all the unique tools,
test equipment, and training needed to stay in business. So although I'm not normally a big fan of government standards, in this case the
EPA taking SAE recommendations and standardizing on them helped level the playing field for garage owners and DIYers alike.

****

Taking a short detour, I've been practicing my use of the FSMs in order to get more out of them than I currently do. I think that
they are a valuable resource, but I do run into stumbling blocks due to some long-running quirks. For example, I remember
scanning through the .pdf files looking for all instances of the commonly used word 'alternator':

You must be registered for see images attach



You must be registered for see images attach



After a quick search in my paper manuals, I figured it out. GM insists on
using the term 'generators'. Sure enough, scanning the same .pdf file gave
me no less than 123 instances:

You must be registered for see images attach


I just generated these screen grabs today, so I'm not spinning a yarn to make my point.

And if I went into 10 different parts stores and asked for a generator for my '99 C2500,
I would only get blank stares, and no matches on their lookup screens.

It's not the end of the world. Just trying to demystify the Factory Service Manuals for
those new to the old truck hobby.

Good conversation.
 
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PlayingWithTBI

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Turns out the original ODB originated via CARB (CA) in '91:
Ooops, it should be OBD, On Board Diagnostics. I'm sure you're not as dyslexic as I am, just a simple mistake.

Just for the fun of it, whenever someone's searching for pins and function on that connector, try ALDL (Assembly Line Diagnostics Link) instead of OBD, just saying :33:
 

Road Trip

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Ooops, it should be OBD, On Board Diagnostics. I'm sure you're not as dyslexic as I am, just a simple mistake.

Whoops -- ODB is a reference to a '90s rap star, little to nothing to do with On Board Diagnostics. :0)

Sincere thanks for pointing that out -- typos like this don't help future readers navigate my train of thought. Fixed!


Just for the fun of it, whenever someone's searching for pins and function on that connector, try ALDL (Assembly Line Diagnostics Link) instead of OBD, just saying :33:

Actually that's what started me down this slippery slope back in reply #7. My focus was on the ALDL
connector (which is how we all know this underdash comm port) ...but my search shows that I actually
used the DLC term to find what I wanted to show in the wiring diagrams.

As a matter of fact, ALDL is only seen 1 time in the '94 FSM I was referencing, and this is actually in the
SAE J1930 nomenclature translation table referenced by GoToGuy. On the other hand, there are 22
instances of DLC, including in the wiring diagrams. All of which I learned the hard way, so I'm hoping that
sharing these quirks helps other FSM students down the road. (See attached.)

And of course by '96 nearly all of this was sorted out. So in order to meet their error quota the FSM technical
writers mixed up other stuff elsewhere. But that's another story for another day. :0)

Again, thanks for keeping me honest. I'm trying to keep the gain/pain ratio of my contributions above water.

Cheers --
 

Attachments

  • '94 DLC instances count - 1994_NATP_9431_1994_CK_TRUCK_SERVICE_MANUAL.jpg
    '94 DLC instances count - 1994_NATP_9431_1994_CK_TRUCK_SERVICE_MANUAL.jpg
    124.8 KB · Views: 10
  • '94 ALDL instances - 1994_NATP_9431_1994_CK_TRUCK_SERVICE_MANUAL.jpg
    '94 ALDL instances - 1994_NATP_9431_1994_CK_TRUCK_SERVICE_MANUAL.jpg
    123.8 KB · Views: 10
Last edited:

GoToGuy

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Evan through it produces Alternating power, it is rectified to Direct Current type voltage.
This may be editorial license , " Generator " , on the part of technical writers as any electrical generating devices are covered in the Chapter heading " Generator".
I don't know where or what your white originated from . It's an overview, as the EU regs are immaterial to US . One important regulation implemented left out, was the overwhelming complaints, and grief about inability to diagnose and the cost associated with having to purchase advanced different equipment for every manufacturer. This action lead to the result of , standard terminology, malfunction codes, the standard DLC , and diagnostic access for repairs. Basically the feds said , fix it or we will. That was all the motivation the big brains needed, OBD I I , resulted.
 

Road Trip

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This is not a problem with regular trucks styles. That's why pressurized fuel injection beats carburetor. The electric pump pushing fuel negates any boiled fuel in the lines.
Is this a joke. Are you trying to fix a problem that's not there.
There isn't much fuel in the throttle body to begin with. If you don't understand the physics. Haven't you ever wondered why no one has mentioned vapor lock in there fuel injection auto's? :3811797817_8d685371

I have had MPFI systems vapor lock. The returnless style are the worst about it.

Fuel line insulation. This may not be the answer, sounds like your problem is in a different direction but wanted to share something that worked for me.

I have a 73 Blazer with a 454, I chased vapor lock for a couple years and almost got use to it. I want to HD and bought some pipe insulation, 4-5 pieces at 8’ ea and some foil tape for duct work. Spent $15 or so. I insulated my supply line from the tank to the pump and anywhere else I could reach. Wrapped the foil tape around all the way (which looks pretty cool) and NEVER HAD A PROBLEM AGAIN.

Hope this helps someone. Thanks for everyone’s support on this forum.

Getting back to the original topic re: vapor lock.

Thanks to repeated poor choices by myself and my buddies, I got to practice more than most efforts to combat
vapor lock. I'd like to share a brief history of what the issues were when we were using carburetors, followed by TBI
& even further Vortec fuel delivery system design changes to keep this customer satisfaction issue at bay.

And I want to share this because some folks are choosing to retrofit a carb onto their DD, or even changing out
their original EFI for an aftermarket setup. And while it's their vehicle & their choice, they should be aware of all
the things that the GM engineers came up with during the design/prototyping of our GMT400s. And we should
pay attention to all this, for they did a good enough job that vapor lock comes up infrequenly in conversation,
whereas back in the day this was a hot topic. :0)

****

The 3 main variables concerning vapor lock:

1)
The pressure (or partial vacuum) that the fuel is inside the fuel line. Just like the cooling system,
the higher the pressure, the higher the boiling point. Keep this in mind when we discuss where the
mechanical fuel pumps used to live vs. the electric fuel pumps in the tank.

2) How much radiated heat and just how close are the heat sources that are run adjacent to the fuel lines?
A '68 Nova equipped with a Super-Thrift 90hp 4 cylinder is an example of a motor where it's easy
to run the fuel line in such a way that it isn't near the hot exhaust. And since we only turn ~1/4 of the
fuel we burn into twist, and the rest is heat, the chances of vapor lock for customers who ordered their
cars this way was comparatively slim.

Especially when compared to the same Nova engine bay ordered with a 375hp L78 396ci big block. The
sheer amount of heat radiated into the same size engine bay was substantially more, whether it's
radiant heat from the manifolds & exhaust, or the additional BTUs pushed into the engine bay from
the radiator/fan combo.

3) The RVP (Reid Vapor Pressure) of the fuel being sold at what time of the year and what area of the
country.
Here's a clear explanation of how the volatility of the fuel is adjusted in order to juggle the
ability to cold start gasoline engines vs the need to minimize evaporative emissions. (RVP)

NOTE: As drivers we have no control over the RVP of the fuel we put into our vehicles. However, you
need to keep this in the back of your mind if your toy is full of gas mixed for cold weather and is driven
hard in a warmer than average weather pattern.

****

From worst to best, here's how the 3 variables were combined:

* The worst of all scenarios: Tank in the back, pump in the front, feeding a carb on the hot seat.

Back when we were stuffing the biggest engines that fit into whatever car we adopted, during the
summer we were busy fighting vapor lock in our rides. The problem could be avoided as long as
you could raise the hood after shutting down the engine. While this worked at your buddy's house,
it's not something you could do in front of a favorite juke joint or club in a rough neighborhood.

But we all knew how long it would take for the engine bay to cool off enough (with the hood down)
that the car would start back up, so this was part of the calculus of figuring out where to go and
how long we were going to stay.

And over time we learned all the tricks. We would pull the intake and replace the intake manifold gaskets
with the ones that blocked off the exhaust crossover passages. We would also move from the original
paper-thin carb base gaskets to the 1/4" insulated gaskets with the phenolic bushings in the corners. (Q-Jet insulators)

This was normally enough to cure most of the vapor lock issues. But especially with custom bent
dual exaust, we'd end up trying to reroute and/or insulate the gas lines where they ran from the
tank up to the mechanical fuel pump on the engine like @Richndaytona mentioned above.

Because the really tough vapor lock issues stemmed from the fact that the fuel in several feet worth of
line was at a partial vacuum because the pump in the front was putting a suction on the line in order
to draw the fuel forward from the tank out back. (!)

* A lot better -- when the factory put an electric fuel pump in the tank

Elsewhere I've admitted to helping a buddy upgrade his mid-'70s Chevy Monza from a 120hp 262ci V8
to a LT-1 style 355ci that bolted right in place of the original motor. Heck, the original cramped engine bay
(originally designed for a rotary) was pretty toasty with the original underachiever engine, so I knew that
tripling the hp also meant a huge increase in engine bay heat post engine swap.

And sure enough, whenever you opened the hood after a drive a wave of heat would punch you right in
the face. If you've ever opened a large oven in a commercial kitchen, you know what I'm talkin' about. :0)

So I was pleasantly surprised when we had zero issues with vapor lock on this car. The factory in-tank
electric fuel pump set to 5-6 psi kept that back to front fuel line under pressure, and this seemed to make
all the difference. Even though we had a custom bent dual exhaust under the car. (Basically a couple
of Z-28 resonators, for that's all we could fit with the exhaust exiting behind the rear tires.)

* TBI - Higher Pressure & new round-trip fuel delivery systems with EFI

So now it's several years later, and only the carb guys seemed to still be talking about vapor lock.
Not only are the TBI systems running at approx. double the pressure of the old carb setups, they
also moved away from a single fuel line (returnless) to a bypass regulator setup. That is, the fuel
pump always sent forward more than enough fuel to support WOT. And the fuel rails would take
whatever they needed, while the excess volume of fuel was sent back to the tank.

In effect, the fuel tank is a giant heat sink for the fuel being fed to the injectors. And in the land of
the GMT400, this basic design worked well enough that only a 2-second prime was necessary to
ensure reliable starting, no matter how hot or cold it was in the engine bay.

But according to the FSM, they must have run into vapor lock issues in the >8500 GVW vehicles
during prototype testing down at GM's AZ desert proving grounds. The solution was to have the
fuel pump prime for ~20 seconds after turning the key to ON. I'll bet that this amount of time
was derived empirically during worst-case hot weather testing.

And I'll bet that 20 seconds is how long it takes to cycle enough cool fuel from the tank through the
TBI fuel delivery loop in order to get the gas below the vapor/fuel transition temp point.
(As @L31MaxExpress has observed, deadheaded fuel delivery systems are more prone
to vapor lock than the round-trip setup on our TBI machines.)

* Vortec -- Higher pressure then TBI -- and also pressure is now held between trips.

Fuel pressure is now held much higher than the 4-6 PSI for needle-and-seat carbs or the
low teens for all the SBC (and some of the BBC) TBIs. Furthermore, in addition to the
2-second prime with the initial Key ON, the Vortec systems have an additional 2-second
fuel pump operation at Key OFF. (!) My unproven theory is that the designers were
trying to ensure that a hot fuel module wouldn't be necessary on the 8-lugger Vortec
GMT400s.

****

The above is just a thumbnail sketch about how fuel delivery systems have improved over
the years from the vapor lock perspective. With this knowledge, using a fuel pressure gauge
we can better troubleshoot a 'hot engine/hot day' engine starting issue.

It's not always an overheated ICM. (But it doesn't hurt to make sure that your ICM has an
optimum quantity of heat sink compound between it and where it's mounted.)

The more the heat x the smaller the engine bay = the more that vapor lock can rear it's ugly head.

If anyone still reading this has their heart set of converting their GMT400 van over to a carb setup
and you live in Phoenix, be sure to think your fuel delivery system through -- at least as much
as the original GM engineers did.

Me? Those old memories of battling vapor lock are still rattling around in my noggin. So every
time my '99 big block chore truck starts immediately, hot or cold, I genuinely appreciate it more
than most. Promise. :0)
 
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GoToGuy

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I would agree with what Road trip stated. GM identified the problem during testing. The worst culprits , big block high btu/ heat generated plus static OAT equals high heat soak underwood temperature . The Van type , Savannah, RV type chassis. Having dog house engine covering. Suseptable to high under hood temps. The engines running in a box.
GM added automated goods to overcome the issue.
Large Air cooled engines experience this issue when shutdown for less 30 minutes. Hard start heat soak.
 

L31MaxExpress

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Getting back to the original topic re: vapor lock.

Thanks to repeated poor choices by myself and my buddies, I got to practice more than most efforts to combat
vapor lock. I'd like to share a brief history of what the issues were when we were using carburetors, followed by TBI
& even further Vortec fuel delivery system design changes to keep this customer satisfaction issue at bay.

And I want to share this because some folks are choosing to retrofit a carb onto their DD, or even changing out
their original EFI for an aftermarket setup. And while it's their vehicle & their choice, they should be aware of all
the things that the GM engineers came up with during the design/prototyping of our GMT400s. And we should
pay attention to all this, for they did a good enough job that vapor lock comes up infrequenly in conversation,
whereas back in the day this was a hot topic. :0)

****

The 3 main variables concerning vapor lock:

1)
The pressure (or partial vacuum) that the fuel is inside the fuel line. Just like the cooling system,
the higher the pressure, the higher the boiling point. Keep this in mind when we discuss where the
mechanical fuel pumps used to live vs. the electric fuel pumps in the tank.

2) How much radiated heat and just how close are the heat sources that are run adjacent to the fuel lines?
A '68 Nova equipped with a 90hp Super-Thrift 90hp 4 cylinder is an example of a motor where it's easy
to run the fuel line in such a way that it isn't near the hot exhaust. And since we only turn ~1/4 of the
fuel we burn into twist, and the rest is heat, the chances of vapor lock for customers who ordered their
cars this way was comparatively slim.

Especially when compared to the same Nova engine bay ordered with a 375hp L78 396ci big block. The
sheer amount of heat radiated into the same size engine bay was substantially more, whether it's
radiant heat from the manifolds & exhaust, or the additional BTUs pushed into the engine bay from
the radiator/fan combo.

3) The RVP (Reid Vapor Pressure) of the fuel being sold at what time of the year and what area of the
country.
Here's a clear explanation of how the volatility of the fuel is adjusted in order to juggle the
ability to cold start gasoline engines vs the need to minimize evaporative emissions. (RVP)

NOTE: As drivers we have no control over the RVP of the fuel we put into our vehicles. However, you
need to keep this in the back of your mind if you toy is full of gas mixed for cold weather and is driven
hard in a warmer than average weather pattern.

****

From worst to best, here's how the 3 variables were combined:

* The worst of all scenarios: Tank in the back, pump in the front, feeding a carb on the hot seat.

Back when we were stuffing the biggest engines that fit into whatever car we adopted, during the
summer we were busy fighting vapor lock in our rides. The problem could be avoided as long as
you could raise the hood after shutting down the engine. While this worked at your buddy's house,
it's not something you could do in front of a favorite juke joint or club in a rough neighborhood.

But we all knew how long it would take for the engine bay to cool off enough (with the hood down)
that the car would start back up, so this was part of the calculus of figuring out where to go and
how long we were going to stay.

And over time we learned all the tricks. We would pull the intake and replace the intake manifold gaskets
with the ones that blocked off the exhaust crossover passages. We would also move from the original
paper-thin carb base gaskets to the 1/4" insulated gaskets with the phenolic bushings in the corners. (Q-Jet insulators)

This was normally enough to cure most of the vapor lock issues. But especially with custom bent
dual exaust, we'd end up trying to reroute and/or insulate the gas lines where they ran from the
tank up to the mechanical fuel pump on the engine like @Richndaytona mentioned above.

Because the really tough vapor lock issues stemmed from the fact that the fuel in several feet worth of
line was at a partial vacuum because the pump in the front was putting a suction on the line in order
to draw the fuel forward from the tank in out back. (!)

* A lot better -- when the factory put an electric fuel pump in the tank

Elsewhere I've admitted to helping a buddy upgrade his mid-'70s Chevy Monza from a 120hp 262ci V8
to a LT-1 style 355ci that bolted right in place of the original motor. Heck, the original engine bay was
pretty toasty with the original underachiever engine, so I knew that tripling the hp meant a huge increase
in engine bay heat. And sure enough, whenever you opened the hood after a drive a wave of heat would
punch you right in the face. It was like opening a large oven in a commercial kitchen. :0)

So I was pleasantly surprised when we had zero issues with vapor lock on this car. The factory in-tank
electric fuel pump set to 5-6 psi kept that back to front fuel line at pressure, and this seemed to make
all the difference. Even though we had a custom bent dual exhaust under the car. (Basically a couple
of Z-28 resonators, for that's all we could fit with the exhaust exiting behind the tires.)

* TBI - Higher Pressure & new round-trip fuel delivery systems with EFI

So now it's several years later, and only the carb guys seemed to still be talking about vapor lock.
Not only are the TBI systems running at approx. double the pressure of the old carb setups, they
also moved away from a single fuel line (returnless) to a bypass regulator setup. That is, the fuel
pump sent forward more than enough fuel to support WOT. And the fuel rails would take whatever
they needed, while the excess was sent back to the tank.

In effect, the fuel tank is a giant heat sink for the fuel being fed to the injectors. And in the land of
the GMT400, this basic design worked well enough that only a 2-second prime was necessary to
ensure reliable starting, no matter how hot or cold it was in the engine bay.

But according to the FSM, they must have run into vapor lock issues in the >8500 GVW vehicles
during prototype testing down at GM's AZ desert proving grounds. The solution was to have the
fuel pump prime for ~20 seconds after turning the key to ON. I'll bet that this amount of time
was derived empirically during worst-case hot weather testing. And I'll bet that 20 seconds is how long
it takes to cycle enough cool fuel from the tank through the TBI fuel delivery loop in order to get the
gas below the vapor/fuel transition temp point. (As @L31MaxExpress has observed, deadheaded
fuel delivery systems are more prone to vapor lock than the round-trip setup on our TBI machines.

* Vortec - Higher pressure then TBI -- and also pressure is now held between trips.

Fuel pressure is now held much higher than the 4-6 PSI for needle-and-seat carbs or the
low teens for all the SBC (and some of the BBC) TBIs. Furthermore, in addition to the
2-second prime with the initial Key ON, the Vortec systems have an additional 2-second
fuel pump operation at Key OFF. (!) My unproven theory is that the designers were
trying to ensure that a hot fuel module wouldn't be necessary on the 8-lugger GMT400s.

****

The above is just a thumbnail sketch about how fuel delivery systems have improved over
the years from the vapor lock perspective. With this knowledge, using a fuel pressure gauge
we can better troubleshoot a 'hot engine/hot day' engine starting issue.

It's not always an overheated ICM. (But it doesn't hurt to make sure that your ICM has an
optimum quantity of heat sink compound between it and where it's mounted.)

The more the heat x the smaller the engine bay = the more that vapor lock can rear it's ugly head.

If anyone still reading this has their heart set of converting their GMT400 van over to a carb setup
and you live in Phoenix, be sure to think your fuel delivery system through -- at least as much
as the original GM engineers did.

Me? Those old memories of battling vapor lock are still rattling around in my noggin. So every
time my '99 big block chore truck starts immediately, hot or cold, I appreciate it every single time.
Promise. :0)
The 1980s F-cars had numerous TSBs and fixes to try to address vapor locking when they were carbureted. From an electric in-tank pump to a boat bilge blower adapted to blow air over the carbureter when the engine was shut down hot.

The vapor lock I have seen and still see is even a large problem on return style system that have fuel rails essentially dead headed. The LS engines, 8100 and the marine manifold I run all have the fuel inlet and regulator somewhat divoriced from the fuel rails. Even during the prime pulse or running the pump after shut-down the fuel rails themselves are essentially dead headed. Pull off the highway on a 110-115F summer day and shut down the engine. The engine and engine compartment then further heat soaks. When you go to restart the engine 5-10 minutes later the fuel in the fuel rails is literally boiling. On hot re-start the engine will fire and usually run, but peg the wideband lean until the fuel rails cool down. Some of the 0411 and P59 calibrations actually have an open loop fuel adder at higher IATs to help combat the situation. Even the P59 and E37 calibrations in the later 4.3L engines have the fuel adder in place. Apparantly even with the fuel metering block having fuel flow through it the Vortec spiders have the same issue.
 
Last edited:
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