Barely Running Believe its a CMP issue.

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Road Trip

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So it's 103 degrees out here. I drove around Las Vegas for about 25 miles, making a few stops along the way. One of which was a Harbor Freight. I picked up a combustion gas detection kit, compression tester kit, and cylinder leak down tester. After that, I decided to drive around some more, and hit the highway a little bit. No issues for about another 15miles on the highway. Stopped to get lunch, and then as I was leaving lunch the misfire started to present itself again. Not as frequent, or as severe. Still too risky for me to feel comfortable driving it 600 miles home, through the sparsely populated Nevada desert.

Hello 1952Chevy,

I appreciate your detailed status report. I like the fact that you monitored the CMP Offset both before and during the misfires. So although we don't know what it
is, we know what it isn't.

However, re-reading everthing that you've posted would lead me to believe that you are experiencing thermal-related electronic intermittent failure.
Please correct me if I get any of the following wrong, but since the beginning, haven't all these issues occurred only after say, 10-15+ minutes of
operation? During the first few minutes of operation, doesn't your vehicle always give you that "I'll never quit" feeling, only to start misfiriing a few
miles down the road?

By the way, if you were to put a thermometer under the hood, while driving you would be observing pretty close to whatever the exit temperature is
from the radiator. (180-190+ degrees F.) But when you shut down, all the coolant stops circulating, and all the heat stored in the exhaust manifolds
just sends the underhood temps skyrocketing. This has been proven ever since engineers were trying to solve vapor lock and fuel boiling in carburetors
down at the AZ proving grounds way back in the day. The engineers always talked about these 'rest stop' driveability issues, especially with high-HP engines.

In English, it looked like your vehicle was doing pretty good until you stopped for lunch. No doubt during that stop the underhood temps soared.

So would it be possible to do the following?

1) Flip your normal schedule, and drive at night instead of during the day?

2) Any time you stop for any reason, immediately pop the hood open and don't allow the heat to build.
If you are stopping at a rest area, getting gas, any reason at all, don't forget to pop the hood wide open.

3) If you have a place to carry the hood, consider the proven Roadkill trick of driving home with the hood
removed. This is one of their workarounds when they are having tough overtemp issues.

NOTE: I've personally never done #3, but I *have* done #1 & #2 when I was suffering from thermal issues
a long way from home. I'll bet you a chicken mcnugget ($1) that if you had fully opened the hood during your lunch
stop you might have not suffered any misfiring afterwards?

4) This may or may not help, but since the engine bay temps are set primarily by the air exiting the radiator,
would it be possible for you to find a 160° thermostat for a 'one time flight' back to home base? It sounds
like we're flirting with the edge of success, and driving late at night with a 160° thermostat, and also being
vigilant in not letting the engine bay bake during stops...maybe we can still get you home under your own power?


During this time, I was specifically watching coolant temp, and CMP offset. Coolant temp got up to about 210 sitting at stoplights, but would quickly fall again once I was moving, usually hovered around 195-200(I honestly can't remember if I put at 185 or 195 t-stat in it, although I believe I did 185). CMP Offset was between -0.9 and -1.5 at all times.


During this round of misfires though my CMP Offset never changed. Is there a CKP or CMP relearn after installing a new sensor? I have read things saying both yes, and no.

It seems that the CASE relearn that you are referring to is not normally done UNLESS a DTC kicks that the
FSM would bring up the need to do this? Again, because your vehicle seems to be well behaved both Closed Loop
and Open Look until the heat starts to build, I'm thinking that you are suffering from a thermal intermittant.

Grasping at straws, IF the CMP Offset went wacky during the misfire, I might be inclined to suspect that the
VCM is the one failing at high temps? But it didn't, and a lot of the VCM has be running right in order to make
those measurements/perform the compares/store the results, and communicate it to your plugged in test equipment?

I've lost the picture of what you've tried so far (I'll go back and reread this thread after posting this) ...but unless
you have a known-good ICM and Coil I'd be wondering about those. And checking them with a *light misting* might
uncover a problem, if not *the* problem.

Whaddaya think? 160° thermostat and then a test drive in the evening, always popping the hood at any burrito break,
refueling, or rest stop? Last but not least, if you take the hood off then please be sure to take pics and share them with
your remote support team. :0)

Keep us in the loop. Safe returns --
 
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Road Trip

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We got back yesterday afternoon, so I didn't have a lot of time to mess with the truck. As of right now a friend is picking up the trailer in our hometown and they will be here tomorrow to tow me back home.

Sir,

Given the timeline my advice was too little too late for getting you home. But it sounds like you have the
kind of friends I also enjoy, which are willing to drop everything and come help if you get stuck. (Of course
I've done the same whenever the opportunity presented itself, so it all works out to the good.)

Anyway, what I outlined in reply #31 is still valid troubleshooting for once you get back home and still need
to sort out your GMT400. It's a tough problem to be sure. But at the same time I'm glad to hear that you
and your kids were able to take in some of the beauty to be found in the desert southwest.

Hope this finds you well --
 

1952Chevy

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^Compression test?

Did you test the chemicals at the tailpipe to confirm they react correctly and the color change occurs?
Thank you, edited for clarity, I was typing too fast.

I didn't think to do that, I will do that though.

Towed home with no issues along the way I hope.
No issues, other than finding out the tow vehicle did not have a working brake controller. V10 Excursion got 8.6mpg on a 600 mile trip with about 8k lbs behind it.
 

1952Chevy

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So I finally got around to working on the truck some more. Thankfully it's not a daily.

I did a warm compression test. Warm as in it wasn't full temp hot, but had run for about 5-10 mins. All cylinders were in the 135-145psi range. All I did was pull the fuel pump relay. I didn't do wide open throttle, or pull all plugs at once.

Considering all cylinders are in the same range, and the exhaust gas test of the coolant passed. I would say I do not have a bad head gasket.

During a few test drives here in Idaho(back at home), it has been missing regularly, cold or hot.

Not the severe jerk the engine off the mounts miss from before. Just stumbling.

I also checked all spark plugs, they looked good, and the gap was all right around .045.

I'm kind of unsure where to go from here. It seems like one of the sensors(CMP or CKP) must have been bad, increasing the trouble. But now just a random miss.

Still no codes, no misfire counts, and thankfully, no CMP offset swings.
 

Schurkey

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All cylinders were in the 135-145psi range. All I did was pull the fuel pump relay. I didn't do wide open throttle, or pull all plugs at once.
But you did open the throttle SOME...right? It was not at curb idle.

And you should pull ALL the plugs before starting the cranking compression test. I'm thinking you need to re-do the cranking compression test.

it has been missing regularly, cold or hot.

Not the severe jerk the engine off the mounts miss from before. Just stumbling...

...It seems like one of the sensors(CMP or CKP) must have been bad,
You've connected a scan tool and checked the crankshaft and camshaft position sensors?

Still no codes, no misfire counts
I'd be mighty tempted to create a deliberate misfire to see if your scan tool is capable of displaying misfire codes, and misfire counts.

I have a suspicion that your scan tool is lying to you.
 

1952Chevy

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But you did open the throttle SOME...right? It was not at curb idle.

And you should pull ALL the plugs before starting the cranking compression test. I'm thinking you need to re-do the cranking compression test.


You've connected a scan tool and checked the crankshaft and camshaft position sensors?


I'd be mighty tempted to create a deliberate misfire to see if your scan tool is capable of displaying misfire codes, and misfire counts.

I have a suspicion that your scan tool is lying to you.
I didn't open throttle at all. I was talking to my dad on the last one and after doing the 8th cylinder the same way as the other 7, I did it with WOT and only had an increase of 10PSI. But if there was a bad headgasket I would think these number still would have been off.

I have checked the cam and crank sensors. I have checked for codes with multiple scan tools, as well as 2 shops, and Autozone. No codes, no misfire counts.
 

Schurkey

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I didn't open throttle at all.
Throttle must be at least partly-open. Doesn't have to be WFO.

I have checked the cam and crank sensors.
HOW? Describe your procedure.

I have checked for codes with multiple scan tools, as well as 2 shops, and Autozone. No codes, no misfire counts.
I'd be mighty tempted to create a deliberate misfire to see if your scan tool is capable of displaying misfire codes, and misfire counts.

I have a suspicion that your scan tool is lying to you.
WHAT SCAN TOOL(s) are you using? Model number + link, please.
 

1952Chevy

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Throttle must be at least partly-open. Doesn't have to be WFO.
I can redo the procedure. I don't expect much of a change. I have read quite a few different posts on procedures, some say open throttle, some don't. I figured with the misfire at idle, then at idle throttle position would be ok.
HOW? Describe your procedure.
I guess specifically I have not checked them. I was having the CMP offset issue, I replaced both sensors, and no longer have a CMP offset issue. The misfire is now much less severe.

WHAT SCAN TOOL(s) are you using? Model number + link, please.
One is a Bluetooth OBDII dongle using the Torque App(I have previously had misfire counts show on this when I had a bad plug wire). My other scan tool is an Autel(cheap version) it doesn't display misfire counts, but has always provided me codes in the past.
Both shops scanned the truck with Snap-On scanners and had no codes or misfire counts read either.
Autozone pulled no codes.

Did you actually check the gear on the distributor? That is the part that fails. Like the side that goes down into the engine.
I have not pulled the distributor back out, may check that next though. I would expect that to cause CMP issues, which were seemingly resolved with a new Cam and Crank sensor.
 

1952Chevy

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Update, I just had a thought, and maybe it's worthless.

I have a timing light. I put the timing light lead on each of the 8 plug wires. They were all very sporadic. It's getting late and I have other things to do, but I will go back out and look at that again.

Does this seem like a decent way of determining anything? My thought process was that if the ignition is working properly then I would get a steady rhythm on each cylinder. Instead of steady and then nothing for a few seconds, or slow and steady with a faster portion.
 
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