700r from 89 Vandura questions

[89Vandura]

Yep, those were the "medium/intermediate duty" units in the TH400 family. It can be upgraded to whatever TH400 family standard if all apart...output shaft, drums, swapped in from TH400s or TH475s...

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This is knowledge that would've been lost to time if not for people like you!

 

[89Vandura]

Just to be clear about the engine itself, what model years would this 1989 350 TBI be a direct fit for?

Would it work in vehicles that are pre-Vortec, up through 1995-96?

Would it mate up with the electronically controlled 4L60e and 4L80e transmissions without too much modification?

I ask because there are a few vans from 1993-1996 that I think still use this engine, but I’m not sure if 1993 and up saw OBD changes that would make this engine a more tricky swap.

 

[Schurkey]

Just to be clear about the engine itself, what model years would this 1989 350 TBI be a direct fit for?

Define "direct fit".

It would "fit" into all sorts of vehicles including TBI cars that might have had different camshafts and compression ratios.

Would it work in vehicles that are pre-Vortec, up through 1995-96?

The long-block would "work" in all sorts of 5.7L TBI vehicles. It would work in lots of 5.0 TBI vehicles with mods to the fueling and computer systems.

Would it mate up with the electronically controlled 4L60e and 4L80e transmissions without too much modification?

ZERO modification as long as the transmission has the typical SBC/BBC bellhousing, and the flexplate matched the torque converter.

Would even work with transmissions having the LS bolt pattern on the bellhousing, but with at least one, and perhaps two bolts missing.

I ask because there are a few vans from 1993-1996 that I think still use this engine, but I’m not sure if 1993 and up saw OBD changes that would make this engine a more tricky swap.

No "important" changes. Maybe different style connectors on some of the sensors 'n' actuators. Perhaps different cam grinds, but not so different that it'd cause problems.

 

[NickTransmissions]

Would even work with transmissions having the LS bolt pattern on the bellhousing, but with at least one, and perhaps two bolts missing.

This is true for all years 4L80E (2000+ 4L80s on Gen1 sbc/bbc only have the top bolt location missing, inconsequential) but not the 4L60Es.

The LS 4L60Es use a diff converter, input shaft, pump stator and deeper bell housing than the sbc gen1 4L60Es and 700R4s. So you can make those later units work by swapping the LS pump, forward drum/input shaft assy, bell and converter out for the Gen1 SBC compatible equivalent parts. But that involves rebuilding the front half of the trans so you may as well rebuild the entire trans at that point since the LOE isnt much greater...

Or you can run an adaptor kit to mate an LS 4L60E to a legacy gen1 sbc or bbc as-is which is the much easier, cheaper solution. There are few diff options out there, some of my customers run them on 4L65Es mated to built 383s, big blocks, etc...

There's a third adaption option that doesnt involve partial rebuild of the trans but Im not clear on all the facts so wont go into it atm.

 

[Schurkey]

I stand corrected.

 

[L31MaxExpress]

This is true for all years 4L80E (2000+ 4L80s on Gen1 sbc/bbc only have the top bolt location missing, inconsequential) but not the 4L60Es.

The LS 4L60Es use a diff converter, input shaft, pump stator and deeper bell housing than the sbc gen1 4L60Es and 700R4s. So you can make those later units work by swapping the LS pump, forward drum/input shaft assy, bell and converter out for the Gen1 SBC compatible equivalent parts. But that involves rebuilding the front half of the trans so you may as well rebuild the entire trans at that point since the LOE isnt much greater...

Or you can run an adaptor kit to mate an LS 4L60E to a legacy gen1 sbc or bbc as-is which is the much easier, cheaper solution. There are few diff options out there, some of my customers run them on 4L65Es mated to built 383s, big blocks, etc...

There's a third adaption option that doesnt involve partial rebuild of the trans but Im not clear on all the facts so wont go into it atm.

That upper is definitely not missing on most SBC engines I have had. My 1983 305 had that bolt hole unused. I think every L31 350 I have owned had it as well. The LS engine is the one that is missing a bolt and actually missing 2 bolts if you use an older 4L80E core that does not have the upper bolt. I thought about leaving that 7th bolt out on my Express because it is the only one that is kind of a pain to get to, but I put it back in anyway. SBC truck engines have had the upper 7th bolt hole since basically forever as manual transmissions trucks used them.

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[NickTransmissions]

That upper is definitely not missing on most SBC engines I have had. My 1983 305 had that bolt hole unused. I think every L31 350 I have owned had it as well. The LS engine is the one that is missing a bolt and actually missing 2 bolts if you use an older 4L80E core that does not have the upper bolt. I thought about leaving that 7th bolt out on my Express because it is the only one that is kind of a pain to get to, but I put it back in anyway. SBC truck engines have had the upper 7th bolt hole since basically forever as manual transmissions trucks used them.

I was referring to the bell housing bolt patterns and bolt hole locations on those bell housings of the transmissions, not what bolt hole locations were present on the engines. You can bolt any 4L80E from any year to any Chevrolet bolt pattern engine including Gen1 SBC, BBC, Gen2 LT1/4 and Gen3/4 LS as the 80 never changed the dimensions of the input shaft, bell housing or torque converter through its entire lifecycle.

That is not so for the 4L60Es....It doesn't matter what bolt hole locations are present on the backs of the engine blocks themselves as it changes nothing about interchangeability (lack thereof) between 4L60Es that were built for Gen1 SBCs vs those that were built to mate to Gen3 SBCs.

The bell housing bolt pattern on a given 4L60E is what matters visually when it comes to determining whether or not a given 4L60E will work with a given generation of engine (Gen1SBC, Gen2 SBC LT1/LT4 or Gen3/4 LS) what will work and what won't. The 4L60E Gen 1 SBC bell housing (Vortec Truck engines and LT1/LT4 engines) are all missing that 12 o'clock bolt which distinguishes them visually, at a glance, from the LS 4L60Es and CANNOT be mated to a Gen 3 engine without massive adaptation or adaptor plate kits.

Same holds true for LS 4L60Es (including 4L65E/4L70E): they cannot be installed onto Gen 1 engines without the same adaptations required to make them work with those engines.

 

[L31MaxExpress]

I was referring to the bell housing bolt patterns and bolt hole locations on those bell housings of the transmissions, not what bolt hole locations were present on the engines. You can bolt any 4L80E from any year to any Chevrolet bolt pattern engine including Gen1 SBC, BBC, Gen2 LT1/4 and Gen3/4 LS as the 80 never changed the dimensions of the input shaft, bell housing or torque converter through its entire lifecycle.

That is not so for the 4L60Es....It doesn't matter what bolt hole locations are present on the backs of the engine blocks themselves as it changes nothing about interchangeability (lack thereof) between 4L60Es that were built for Gen1 SBCs vs those that were built to mate to Gen3 SBCs.

The bell housing bolt pattern on a given 4L60E is what matters visually when it comes to determining whether or not a given 4L60E will work with a given generation of engine (Gen1SBC, Gen2 SBC LT1/LT4 or Gen3/4 LS) what will work and what won't. The 4L60E Gen 1 SBC bell housing (Vortec Truck engines and LT1/LT4 engines) are all missing that 12 o'clock bolt which distinguishes them visually, at a glance, from the LS 4L60Es and CANNOT be mated to a Gen 3 engine without massive adaptation or adaptor plate kits.

Same holds true for LS 4L60Es (including 4L65E/4L70E): they cannot be installed onto Gen 1 engines without the same adaptations required to make them work with those engines.

The older 4L60E or even 700r4 transmissions bolt right up to a LS engine, minus the two missing bolts I mentioned earlier. Crank spacer if it has a short crank and flat flexplate are all that is needed. I bolted a 6.0L to a TH400 no problem. I have a friend that bolts 5.3Ls to 700r4s with carburetors on all his old muscle cars. Flexplate, spacer, longer bolts, done.

The reverse putting a newer 4L60E on a SBC would need a bellhousing spacer as the SBC crank is longer than the shorter crank LS.

 

[NickTransmissions]

The older 4L60E or even 700r4 transmissions bolt right up to a LS engine, minus the two missing bolts I mentioned earlier. Crank spacer if it has a short crank and flat flexplate are all that is needed. I bolted a 6.0L to a TH400 no problem. I have a friend that bolts 5.3Ls to 700r4s with carburetors on all his old muscle cars. Flexplate, spacer, longer bolts, done.

The reverse putting a newer 4L60E on a SBC would need a bell housing spacer as the SBC crank is longer than the shorter crank LS.

Yes, you need a spacer. The spacers are available but as-is (i.e. no spacer) it won't work. I have plenty of customers with 700R4s behind carbed LS engines that use those spacer and/or adaptor kits. Last time I checked, spacers and adaptor kits were available on JEGS.

If you know of a way to do it without any spacers, adaptor kits, diff flex plates or anything else (just 100% as-is) I'm all ears....

 

[L31MaxExpress]

Yes, you need a spacer. The spacers are available but as-is (i.e. no spacer) it won't work. I have plenty of customers with 700R4s behind carbed LS engines that use those spacer and/or adaptor kits. Last time I checked, spacers and adaptor kits were available on JEGS.

If you know of a way to do it without any spacers, adaptor kits, diff flex plates or anything else (just 100% as-is) I'm all ears....

Bolts right to a 4.8L or 6.0L that came with a 4L80E. As I said earlier my 6.0L bolted right to a TH400.